How Do You Feel About Your Non-Traditional Relationships Now?

www.quora.com/Couples-who-have-stayed-in-nontraditional-long-term-relationships-swingers-poly-etc-How-do-you-feel-about-your-relationship-now-What-would-you-tell-young-couples-who-choose-that-lifestyle/answer/Joreth-Innkeeper

Q. Couples who have stayed in nontraditional long term relationships (swingers, poly, etc.) How do you feel about your relationship now? What would you tell young couples who choose that lifestyle?

A. I feel content, satisfied, excited, loved, aroused, humbled, and inspired by my relationships now. Notice that I used the plural there. Because I’m polyamorous, I have more than one relationship.

I am not a couple. I am not half of a couple. I am a whole and complete person who also has partnerships with other whole and complete people. I have my own identity, my own agency, my own autonomy, as do my partners. Because we are whole and complete people, we are *able* to enter into mutually satisfying and fulfilling partnerships of equals and we are able to design the kind of relationships that make us happy. One cannot have ethical relationships with half-entities or incomplete people.

As Jessica said, if you’re starting out as a couple, you’re already doomed. I would tell all new “couples” that they need to first disentangle themselves and find their identities that they have subsumed into their relationship before trying to engage with other people, regardless of the style of non-monogamy or non-traditional relationship they’re interested in.

Everyone you get into any kind of relationship with deserves to be in a relationship with a whole and complete person, not a relationship construct.

Rediscover your identity. Take back your autonomy. Become whole and complete people who are in a partnership with each other. And *then* try something different.

The Most Skipped Step[s] When "Opening A Relationship" + 1

I would also tell people in couples that it is not possible to “open up” an existing relationship. All relationships are between individual people. You have to deconstruct your relationship first and then reconstruct it as a new, “open” version (whatever version that means for you) where two individual people are now in a relationship that accommodates whatever non-traditional format you’re pursuing.

You might have to literally break up first and then get back together with a renegotiated relationship structure. Practice saying that: “we are not ‘opening up’, we have deconstructed and are reconstructing a totally new relationship that is open to X”.

"Opening Up" A Relationship Doesn't Work, Try This Method Instead

And then basically read everything I write under my Couple Privilege and Unicorn Hunter tags on my blog (which, to be fair, has some strong overlap):

Entries tagged with unicorn hunting
Entries tagged with couple privilege

Mostly I tell young people not to try polyamory.  It’s not really something that you can just “try”, like test driving a car.  The car has no feelings about your inexperienced handling of it and subsequent return to the dealership.  These are real people you’re “experimenting” with, and we don’t like being people’s chemistry experiments.  We’re usually the ones who get blown up in the lab when you make a mistake and then decide that open relationships aren’t for you and you go back to your comfortable, safe, monogamous couple.

While nobody knows for sure what they want if they haven’t done it before (and people are notoriously bad at predicting what will make them happy), I would rather not see anyone “try” open relationships.  I would rather see people taking a really good, long, hard look at themselves, really considering all the options, and deciding that this is something they feel, down in their very soul, that they need to be doing right now.

They don’t have to decide for sure that they definitely *are* poly, or whatever.  They don’t have to decide ahead of time what their relationship structure will look like (in fact, please don’t do this either).  They don’t have to make a choice that they will be forced to stick with for the rest of their lives.  They just have to decide that they will be jumping, all-in, when they make that leap, that this is a decision they are wholeheartedly embracing, regardless of the outcome.

They can have some wibbles, some concerns, some doubts, some fears.  Courage is not the absence of fear.  It’s acknowledging the fear and then doing it anyway.  But when “couples”, or people go into open relationships and leave a “back door” open for themselves, that makes the people they are asking to entrust them with their hearts (or their bodies) disposable.  That’s a Sword of Damocles hanging over their heads.  That’s not fair, or ethical, for anyone.

If you can hear the cautionary tales and people like me saying that this is not a decision to make lightly, that you are responsible for how your actions affect those you get involved with, and you think about the type of relationships you’re attempting to have and you still really want them and feel like this is the right path for you to be on, then great.

But if you’re doing it because someone you love wants to and it’s the only way to keep them, if you think it might be “fun” to “try something new” or “spice up your relationship”, or you think that maybe you could be willing to explore something as long as there is a safety net for you to fall back on … don’t. Just … don’t.

And one last thing - listen to the community.  New couples have a tendency to come up with an idea and then relentlessly pursue it, while the veterans in that relationship style tell them there are better ways, and the new couples get mad at the community for being “mean” nor “not accepting” or “intolerant”.

Look, you’re not the first one to try this.  You’re also not a special snowflake who can somehow make all the same mistakes that thousands of people before you made but will come out of it with different outcomes.  The veterans are telling you things that often they wish they had known before starting out.  We’ve learned the hard way so that you don’t have to.  If the whole community is telling you that you’re “doing it wrong”, or you feel that everyone is against you, it’s probably something that *you’re* doing, not everyone else.

You’re going to have to learn some humility here and learn to listen to hard things from people who have been there, done that, wore out the t-shirt.  There is a *reason* why communities develop community wisdom or trends for how things are done.  You don’t need to burn your hand on the candle flame (or worse, burn someone else’s hand because you wanted to play with fire) - we learned a long time ago that fire is hot and how to play with it safely.  Listen to us and you’ll decrease the chances of anyone getting seriously burned.

Do You Think #Feminist Women Are Gold Diggers?

https://www.quora.com/Do-you-think-feminist-women-are-gold-diggers/answer/Joreth-Innkeeper

Q.   Do you think feminist women are gold diggers?

A.   Feminists are people who believe that everyone should have equal power and freedom and opportunity in a society where women currently are disempowered, and the goal is to empower them to full autonomy.  Under a capitalist system, that means that women have their own economic security.

A “gold digger” is a patriarchal term where society sets up women to be economically disadvantaged, offers them only one way to improve or secure their economic status and that’s through romantic relationships, and then socially punishes women for pursuing the only avenue available to them for privilege, empowerment, security, or simply survival by calling them names for doing the one thing they are supposed to be doing.

So, by definition, feminists want to dismantle the entire system that puts women into the position of needing to pursue romantic partnerships with men for economic security.

Which would make them the opposite of “gold diggers”.

The way to remove the trend of women using their romantic relationships to improve or stabilize their economic status is to provide more opportunity for women to improve or stabilize their economic status in ways that do not involve romantic partnerships - i.e. equal pay, equal job opportunities, social services for drains on finances like childcare, healthcare, housing, food, etc.  Separate the means of survival and economic status improvement from relationship status, and you remove the problem of women pursuing men for economic reasons.

Reminder: Get Media Training For Your Interviews

Reminder:  I teach people how to deal with media requests.  If you get approached by a "journalist", and you don't already have this training from somewhere, you can ask me how to vet them and make sure they're legit and that your story will be treated fairly.  There are a lot of unscrupulous people who get to use the title "journalist", or "producer" who have an agenda or a story that *they* want to tell, and they want to use you merely as characters in their story.   Especially if they have a public persona and can leverage their name as credibility.

Learn how to check into the background of someone who approaches you for a story, a TV show, a documentary, a news segment, an article, whatever, to make sure they really are who they say they are and that they have verifiable evidence that they are a) working for who they say they are / working on the project they claim to be working on and b) will treat you with the proper journalistic ethics and respect.

Polyamory Media Association

Do You Give Second Chances?

https://www.quora.com/Would-you-ever-consider-a-new-relationship-with-someone-who-previously-dumped-you/answer/Joreth-Innkeeper

Q.   Would you ever consider a new relationship with someone who previously dumped you?

A.  I have considered it.  I have given second chances.  I have gotten into several relationships with people who dumped me previously.  I have regretted every single instance of this.  Without exception.

Every time the second chance ends, I get bitter and say “no second chances ever again!  If we break up, it’s for a reason!”  And then someone comes along and, for some reason, I justify to myself that this one is different because of whatever specific circumstances.  It’s never the exact same thing twice, but that’s because everyone I date is a different person.  The relationship itself was different.  The breakup was different.  The reasons for the breakup was different.  I wanted different things back then than I do this time.  Whatever, it’s always “different”.

And not once have I ever been correct.

Not only have I never once been correct, but I regretted the second chance to the point of actually wishing I could undo the entire thing.  I’ve made a lot of mistakes in my life, but for the most part, I’ve learned things from those mistakes that make me who I am today.  If I were handed a magic telephone booth and told I could go back in time to change whatever I wanted about my own life, most of those things I wouldn’t actually change.

These second chances?  Yeah, I’d change them.  I’d erase the whole fucking thing.  I’d get rid of all the good times that went along with them.  I’d delete any lessons I supposedly learned from them.  I’d get rid of the whole second chance for each and every one of them.

So here I am, still stinging from my most recent poor “second chance”, still angry about it, telling everyone about how I keep saying that I don’t do second chances and that each time I do is somehow an “exception” to the rule, knowing that I will probably find some other “exception” to justify doing it again in the future.  And that I’ll write another blog post or social media post or advice column or whatever, telling people that second chances are bullshit and I don’t like to do them.

I am, apparently, an incurable optimist hiding in the skin of a cynic.  I ought to listen to the cynic more often.

Would You Be The 4th Female?

www.quora.com/For-women-would-you-move-into-a-house-with-a-couple-that-share-a-3rd-female-and-that-would-make-you-the-4th-female-All-share-a-bed-and-have-sex-with-each-other-Why-or-why-not/answer/Joreth-Innkeeper

Q. For women, would you move into a house with a couple that share a 3rd female and that would make you the 4th female? All share a bed and have sex with each other. Why or why not?

A.

1. I could not live with people who “share” other human beings like they’re a milkshake to be shared on a date.  I could not trust them to treat *me* as a human being, because they have clearly shown they are willing to dehumanize people for their own gratification.
    
2. I could not live with people who call women “females”.  There’s a whole body of literature on what’s wrong with that term.
    
3. I could not live with people who assume that cohabiting automatically means “would make you the 4th female”.  The question assumes that “move into a house” necessarily implies a polyfidelitious arrangement.  I’m not sure what kind of houses y’all have been living in, but I’ve had a number of roommates and housemates, some of whom were also romantically involved with each other, and never was simply “move into a house” defined as “would make you the 4th female”.  In order for that to happen, there would have to be an invitation to join their polyfidelitious relationship, not just live under their roof.
    
4. I am straight.  I am not sexually attracted to women.
    
5. I have autonomy.  To require me to have sex with anyone, even if they were the gender of my orientation, is coercive.  Even when I do enter into a romantic and sexual relationship, I still retain the ability to give and revoke consent at any time.  Sex is never a *requirement*.  If, at any time, someone is required to have sex with anyone in order to maintain their housing, that is deeply coercive indeed.  Certainly I would never get into a relationship with someone where sex with *other people* is required in order to maintain the relationships I want.  That’s really fucked up.
    
6. Even though I do enjoy group sex, I do not enjoy it all the time.  Every relationship needs to be nurtured on its own, which means that each of the 4 people in that house needs to be able to explore their individual relationships with each other person independently and each of those relationships needs to be able to grow in whatever ways that relationship wants to grow.  Forcing all of the relationships to be the “same” is also coercive and codependent.  So even assuming my orientation matched *and* I was interested in a sexual relationship with each person, I still wouldn’t join a group that expected group sex all the time.
   
   I was actually in a relationship that did that in a defacto way.  It was quite toxic and insidious.  They never said that group sex was expected or required, but they all insisted on spending so much group time together that nobody ever really got any alone-time with each other, and every time someone had sex without the others present, somebody would have some kind of emotional crisis about being “left out” or “abandoned” and it took weeks of tears and arguments to make everyone feel better again.  It was so bad that I eventually lost interest in sex completely because it was a minefield.
    
7. I have several sleep disorders.  I do not co-sleep well.  I always have my own bedroom for my own health and sanity.

In short, there is absolutely nothing about that scenario that is appealing and everything about it is a red flag for an abusive situation.  And I say this as someone who has a spouse that is a straight man who has (at least) 2 other partners where the 4 of us get together and have some kind of kinky group sex.

The difference is that there is no cohabitation, no expectations or requirements of co-sleeping, definitely no coercion where everyone is required to all have sex together (the 3 of us women are not actually in direct sexual relationships with each other, we are just all in a relationship with him), and none of us are treated as objects to be “shared”.  We all respect each other’s autonomy and see each other as human beings, not “female” animals, sex objects, need fulfillment machines, nannies, bang-maids, harem members, or possessions.

Every word in this question drips with entitlement, assumptions, misogyny, and co-dependence.  I wouldn’t enter into a scenario like this if I was homeless and desperately needed a place to stay for survival.

#ThingsIWantToToon: Wait ... Don't ... Go...!

Two movie characters, gender and other identifying characteristics irrelevant.  Each line is a new panel.

1) That's it! I'm leaving!

2) No!

2) Wait!

2) There is...

2) something I need...

2) to tell...

2) you...

1) I don't want to hear it! I'm outta here!

2) ...

1) ...

2) ...

1) So don't even bother!

2) [mutely grabs hair in frustration]

1) [walks away]

2) [stares silently in anger]

1) [keeps walking]

2) ...

1) ...

2) [exasperated sigh]

#JustFuckingBlurtItOutAlready #AlmostAllMovieConflictsCanBeSolvedByCommunication

What Does Commitment Mean In Polyamory?

https://www.quora.com/What-does-committed-relationship-mean-in-terms-of-polyamory/answer/Joreth-Innkeeper

Q. What does "committed relationship" mean in terms of polyamory?

A. There is an atheist saying: “I contend that we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you”. It means that everyone lacks belief in gods, so when you ask what it’s like to not believe in *your* gods, it’s much like what it’s like when you don’t believe in other gods.

Commitment in polyamory is much the same thing. Everyone commits to a variety of things in their relationships. Polys just don’t commit to sexual exclusivity. Otherwise, we commit to many of the same things. When you took your wedding vows (or when people do, if you, reader, personally haven’t gotten married), there were all kinds of commitments in those vows, and I’d wager that none of them were “I promise never to let my genitals touch anyone else’s genitals”.

For instance, these are my wedding vows. I’d bet some of them sound pretty similar to a lot of your monogamous wedding vows:

I commit myself to you
As your spouse
To learn and grow with,
To explore and adventure with,
To build and create with,
To support you and respect you
In everything as an equal partner,
In the foreknowledge of joy and pain,
Strength and weariness,
Direction and doubt,
For as long as the love shall last.
We exchange these rings
To symbolize our connection to one another.
They represent a commitment
To honor and respect one another
And to recognize
The agency and essential humanity of each of us.

See? Nothing in there about genitals or sex. All we did, really, was leave out the parts about forsaking all others and the part about forever, but the rest is pretty similar to monogamous vows.

A friend of mine once said that being poly is kind of like being vegetarian, where people find out that she doesn’t eat meat, so they ask “OMG what do you even eat then?!” as if the absence of meat means that, literally, the majority of foodstuffs on the planet don’t exist. There’s so much more to eat besides beef, chicken, lettuce and Wonder bread, and if you thought about it, you’d realize that you eat a lot of the same things that vegetarians do too, they just don’t eat meat.

Because polys have to think a little more deliberately about the kinds of things we commit to, since there isn’t really a social template to follow and we can’t just do things by default, some of us probably have come up with some commitments that monogamous people don’t make. I’m not saying we’re *identical* to monogamy only without sexual exclusivity.

In fact, I’d even bet that *monogamists* aren’t identical to each other and y’all make some commitments amongst yourselves that are unique, or at least not common or that not everyone else makes too.

I’m also childfree by choice and solo poly, which means that in addition to not being sexually exclusive, I also don’t make commitments to things like co-parenting or cohabiting. So, I’m sure that some of my personal commitments are things that other people don’t make in their relationships. But they’re still normal sorts of things to commit to that even mono relationships could benefit from.

And a lot of them are things that a lot of people do commit to, but so much of monogamy is by default and by implicit assumption. So, if pressed, a lot of people could probably admit to some of them being values they also hold, they just never really thought about it or said it out loud like a vow.

I have so many things that I commit to in relationships, that I wrote a whole page on my website that I managed to get more than 20 blog pieces out of when I broke it down by each commitment that I make in my relationships:

www.TheInnBetween.net/polycommitments.html

The full explanation of each point is on that page. The bullet list is:

• I am committed to respecting my partners' autonomy, agency, and personal sovereignty - that is, respecting their right to make informed, un-coerced decisions and to be responsible for their own decisions, their right to act according to their own free will, and their right to own their body and control what happens to it.
   
• I am committed to respecting my partners’ right to make their own life choices.
   
• I am committed to doing my best to practice flexibility and compassion with regards to the paths my partners may take in life.
   
• I am committed to respecting the roles that other people play in my partners’ lives.
   
• I am committed to allowing my metamour relationships to find their own structure and direction without forcing them into a predetermined shape.
   
• I am committed to considering my metamours as "family" regardless of the structure or emotional closeness of our individual metamour relationships and to treat them accordingly.
   
• I am committed to working through problems with my partners starting with the assumption that we love and cherish each other and are therefore really on the same side.
   
• I am committed to supporting my partners in being the best version of themselves that they can be.
   
• I am committed to taking care of myself so that I can be the best partner I can be.
   
• I am committed to protecting the safety of myself and my partners through informed consent and risk-benefit analysis of behaviour, prioritizing evidence-based reason above emotional justification.
   
• I am committed to addressing issues early in order to prevent them from becoming too big to handle.
   
• I am committed to prioritizing situations, not partners, because all my partners are a priority.
   
• I am committed to including my partners on the higher ring of priorities in my life (partners / work / pets / family emergencies / etc.) and to not passing them over in favor of other events or people too often.
   
• I am committed to accepting assistance from my partners when needed, and sometimes just when it would be nice.
   
• I am committed to limiting my actions and words which have the intent or goal of harming my partners, although I acknowledge that some decisions I may make for the benefit of myself or my relationships may result in hurt as a consequence, unintentional or not.
   
• I am committed to be as clear about my expectations as possible, both with myself and with my partners.
   
• I am committed to choosing the Path of Greatest Courage by always being honest with myself and my partners while simultaneously allowing compassion to dictate the delivery of my honesty.
   
• I am committed to prioritizing the happiness of the individuals over the longevity of the group if / when those two values are in conflict.
   
• I am committed to discussing harm reduction plans and contingency plans for when bad things happen, because I understand that we can’t always prevent them from happening.
   
• I am committed to allowing the relationship to find its own structure and direction without forcing it into a predetermined shape and to considering alternate structures and directions before automatically resorting to breaking up when situations and priorities change.
   
• I am committed to becoming a friendly ex should a breakup occur and the situation is such that it would not be harmful to remain in contact, with the understanding that “friendly ex” is a statement on my own actions, not the structure of the post-breakup relationship.
   
• I am committed to choosing partners who share my values so that they also make similar commitments to themselves, to me and our relationship, and by extension, my other partners (their metamours).
   
• I am committed to not expecting anyone to live up to the Perfect Poly standard, including myself.
   
• I am committed to allowing myself and my partners the forgiveness and the freedom to be flawed, to have bad days, and to occasionally fail to live up to expectations or commitments, providing that the bad times do not outnumber the good times in either frequency or emotional weight and the commitment to prioritizing individual happiness over longevity still holds.

Honestly, the frequency with which monogamous people ask polys incredulously about what we could possibly commit to if sexual exclusivity is off the table kinda makes *me* want to question *them* about the kinds of things *they* commit to, since they can’t seem to come up with what else we might commit to on their own.

“But what do you commit to if not sexual exclusivity?”

“Wait a minute, what do *you* commit to? Is sexual exclusivity really the only possible relationship commitment you can come up with? Is that really the only part of your relationship that makes it stand out as something special? That elevates this relationship above all others? Is this really the only difference between your marriage and all your other relationships? That you have sex with just this one person? What happens if one of you gets sick and you can’t have sex with them anymore? Is that the only thing holding your relationship together? If you can’t have sex, does your relationship fall apart because you have no other commitments to each other? What do YOU commit to besides sexual exclusivity?”

How Do You Tell A Guy You Just Want To Hook Up With Him?

www.quora.com/How-do-you-ask-a-guy-to-sleep-with-you/answer/Joreth-Innkeeper

Q. How do you tell a guy you just want to hook up with him?

A. Here’s what I said to the last guy I hooked up with:

“Hey there, I know we’re not compatible for dating in a relationship, but would you be interested in a hookup?”

Here’s what I said to the guy I hooked up with before that:

“So, we’re both getting out of long-term relationships and not interested in getting back into another one right now. What do you think about hooking up then?”

Here’s how I hit on a celebrity that I met when I worked for him once and a friend of mine who knew him said he would probably be open to me propositioning him:

“I hope you don’t mind, but [mutual friend] said you would be open to hearing about a fantasy I had about you…”

He said “Oh, yeah, tell me all about it!”

[I told him all about it]

He said “wanna make that a reality the next time I come to town?”

I said “yes”.

Now I keep an eye out for whenever his show is going to be in town, and if he doesn’t message me first asking to hookup, I message him to see if he wants to see me while he’s in town. So I basically ask him for a hookup about once a year (or he asks me for one).

Here’s how I asked another guy for a hookup:

“I’m kinda crushing on you right now. Interested in a little fun tonight, no strings attached?”

Basically, I find it’s usually most successful to just come out and tell someone that I’m attracted to them and interested in casual sex. But the real key to this working for me is by not having any expectations of their reciprocation. This means that, when I tell someone I’m interested, I don’t have any agenda. I’m not trying to “talk them into it”, I’m just passing along information. They can do with that information what they will. If they’re also interested in me, great, we’ll hookup. If they’re not interested in me, great, now I know where we stand and I let it go and we can go on being friends or coworkers or whatever we were before I propositioned them.

Getting all weird about it, asking in soft language to protect myself just in case they say no, not handling rejection, making them responsible for my expectations, trying to talk them into it - all that kind of stuff is what makes things awkward and uncomfortable and all the things that people fear when they fear rejection.

So I just put my interest out there, and if they return the interest then it’s cool and if they don’t then it’s still cool and I move on.

I can’t reasonably expect to get what I want if I don’t ask for what I want. So I ask for what I want. Some of the time, I get what I want. A lot of the time I don’t, but that’s life and I move on.

Mansplainers Mansplain Feminism & Dating Advice To Me

www.quora.com/Can-you-choose-to-be-LGBT-Why/answer/Joreth-Innkeeper/comment/85632057

In a quora question about whether we could "choose" to be LGBTQ, I responded that I *wish* it was a choice because men basically suck and I'd love to not be attracted to them anymore, but I just am and I'm simply not attracted to not-men.

So some douchenozzle comes out and mansplains to me in a reply about me being fed up with the shit that men do.

Because of course he does.  Because #LewisLaw

Apparently I just have to learn how to find people with common interests.  Because that's NEVER FUCKING OCCURRED TO ME EVER IN MY LIFE (says the person who literally gives that answer to everyone asking how to find other polys) AND I'M NOT ACTUALLY TALKING ABOUT A BIGGER ISSUE.

Ernie Dunbar:  It's worth noting that everyone has this problem.

The problem is finding someone who's compatible with you.  It's no wonder that everyone thinks there's only one person in the whole world that fits just right, because when dating, we never narrow it down beyond “singles” before starting the search.

Personally, I've found a great deal of success by hanging out with people who have common interests.  So long as there's a sufficient number of people open to a relationship in that group, you'll find what you're looking for just by narrowing the field down a bit first.

Joreth Innkeeper:   Are you serious?  You think my big problem is that I can’t find anyone who shares my *hobbies*?!  And that I’m *alone* because of it?

I’m married.  I’m polyamorous.  I’m a community organizer.  My own relationship network is about 50 people.  I already know how to make friends and “hang out with people who have common interests”.

I’m not talking about compatibility.  I’m talking about gender issues, sexism, misogyny, and feminism.  And mansplaining like this is part of why I’m fed up with men and wish I could just chuck the lot of you out the airlock.

Here’s a newsflash for you … men who share my interests CAN ALSO BE ASSHOLES.   It’s fucking easy to find people with common interests.  It’s not easy to find men who aren’t mansplaining, privilege-denying, entitled jerkoffs and I’m too fucking tired to keep doing the emotional labor, the Relationship Maintenance labor, the Household Management labor and All The Intersectional SJ Educational labor every time I meet a guy who happens to share my interests in movies and music.

Why Do Women Get Bitter After Marriage?

https://www.quora.com/My-wife-has-changed-since-marrying-me-She-isnt-as-laid-back-and-free-spirited-as-she-used-to-be-The-same-thing-happened-with-my-ex-wife-too-which-led-to-our-divorce-Why-do-they-get-bitter-after-marriage/answer/Joreth-Innkeeper

Q.   My wife has changed since marrying her.  she isn't as laid back and free spirited as she used to be.  The same thing happened with my ex-wife too which lead to our divorce.  Why do they get bitter after marriage?

A.  As they say, “if all of your exes are crazy, the thing they have in common is you”.  Lots of other commenters are pointing this out.

First, losing one’s free-spiritedness is not “bitter”.  As someone else said, the opposite of laid back is not bitter.  So one does not follow from the other.  If they’re both “bitter”, then something serious is going on.  But if they’re just not as fun as they used to be, then it’s probably your problem for expecting them to perform their personalities for your entertainment.

Either way, the problem points to something you’re doing that results in your partners ending up unhappy, which is point number two.

Third, women, in general, are still expected to be the Household Managers, even when their hetero relationships are more or less “equal” in other respects.  When a man gets home from work, he might have to take out the trash or wash the dishes after dinner, but his job is essentially over when he clocks out.  When women get home from work, they start their second job.

Even when *chores* are split evenly, women are still expected to be the manager.  Men “help out around the house”.  Men often say “if you want me to do something, just ask”.  We shouldn’t have to ask.  As an adult living in the house, you ought to know that the trash needs taking out and the dishes need washing and the kids need to be fed and the floor needs vacuuming and, and, and.

Project Management is a full time, highly paid job.  But a lot of women are expected to do it for free, and without notice, when they get home while a lot of men are given all the credit for “helping out”.  So a lot of women who, as single women with only themselves to care for, get married and have children and end up losing their “laid back” and “free-spirited” natures because shit has to get done and nobody else will do it unless they take the reins and make them do it.  The household needs to be managed.  It’s really difficult to be “laid back” and “free spirited” when there is shit that need to get done, especially when the people you’re responsible for overseeing don’t realize that you have a legitimate job as the overseer.

I’m a freelancer in an industry where crews are hired to perform job duties for a particular contract, and when the contract ends, we go on to find other contracts.  Many of us who have been working in the industry for a while know each other and we often find ourselves on crews of the same people over and over again.  Between regular contact and our industry’s traditions of networking for gigs, many of us are friends outside of work.

Because of this, we can often find ourselves working on a crew one day where our friend Joe was hired as the crew chief.  And perhaps the next week, Emily got hired as the crew chief for this other gig and Joe has to work under Emily’s supervision when Emily was working for Joe just a week ago.

Some people who are new to the industry find it difficult sometimes to work for their friends.  They go from being buddies who drink and smoke pot together, to now their buddy is “in charge” and making demands of them and they can’t respond to their buddy like he’s their buddy. Yesterday, he was their buddy.  Tomorrow, he’ll be their buddy again.  But today, he’s the boss.

When people get married, and someone ends up taking on the Project Manager role for the Household Manager, they are no longer that carefree, laid-back, free-spirit you went on dates with.  Now they’re in a managerial role, and possibly a role they didn’t ask for and might not even want.  And here you are wondering where your date buddy went, now that she’s been promoted to Project Manager and there is shit that needs to get done.

You will probably find that your wives are better able to act more laid-back and free-spirited if they had a little less management responsibilities on their plate.  I know that I’m usually too tired for a spontaneous decision to get dressed up and go out dancing all night when I’ve put in 12 hours at work only to come home and find the house a mess and someone waiting for me to ask them to make dinner.

And I find that a lot of my last-minute “let’s just get in the car and drive and see where we end up and spend the weekend there!” plans to explore and adventure get scrapped when I have a grown-up job and a mortgage to pay and kids with homework that need to be done and dentist visits to schedule and swim meets to attend.

The ability to be “laid back” and “free-spirited” is directly negatively correlated with how many responsibilities need one’s attention and how many other people require attention to those responsibilities for their survival.

If you want your wife to feel more “laid back” and “free spirited”, then you could start by taking some of the responsibilities off her plate.

The Invisible Workload That Drags Women Down - “To truly be free, we need to free women’s minds. Of course, someone will always have to remember to buy toilet paper, but if that work were shared, women’s extra burdens would be lifted. Only then will women have as much lightness of mind as men.”

Women Aren't Nags—We're Just Fed Up - “that I was the manager of the household, and that being manager was a lot of thankless work. Delegating work to other people, i.e. telling him to do something he should instinctively know to do, is exhausting. … Even having a conversation about the imbalance of emotional labor becomes emotional labor.”

Why I Don't "Help" My Wife - “When you make a mess, you shouldn't expect your wife to clean it up. It's your job to clean up your own messes. You both live there, you're not “helping” her with anything because it's your home.”

How Can I Make Him Marry Me For Social Respect?

I am frequently appalled at why people marry. This is why I am basically opposed to legal marriage entirely, even now that I am legally married.

www.quora.com/He-and-I-have-been-together-for-2-yrs-I-want-to-get-married-I-want-to-have-his-name-and-the-respect-that-society-gives-to-the-wife-Instead-he-thinks-of-it-as-a-government-conspiracy-and-gives-me-the-divorce-rate/answer/Joreth-Innkeeper

Q. He and I have been together for 2 yrs. I want to get married. I want to have his name and the respect that society gives to the “wife”. Instead, he thinks of it as a government conspiracy and gives me the “divorce rate” argument.   What can I do?

A. You two clearly have diametrically opposed worldviews. Even if you manage to convince him to marry you, your marriage is probably doomed. Mutually exclusive worldviews do not lend themselves well for long-term compatibility.

Incidentally, you do not have to legally marry and let the government into your bedroom in order to obtain many of the same things that marriage can afford. If the “respect” of a society that doesn’t think you are worth anything unless you are attached to a man is important to you, you can arrange your relationship to resemble a legal marriage without the legality (assuming your partner is willing to participate).

Nobody demands to see a marriage license when you introduce yourself as Mrs. No banks require a marriage license to purchase property together or open joint accounts together. If, at this point, you don’t know that babies can be born outside of wedlock, I don’t know what to tell you.

Personally, I don’t believe that anyone should get legally married unless their intention is to become legally entangled in exactly the ways in which a legal marriage entangles them. If you want something other than those legal benefits and responsibilities, there are other ways to get those things. You can even have the big party and white dress without the legal license, if you really want it.

Tying yourself to another person, ostensibly for life, just to get the “respect” of a bunch of strangers who wouldn’t know the difference if you weren’t legally tied anyway, is probably the worst reason to get married*, IMO. Followed by getting married to “lock them down” into a commitment. Marriages are easier to break than getting out of a shared mortgage these days.

If what you’re looking for is some societal respect, you’re probably going about it the wrong way. But that aside, your partner clearly does not share your views on how important that respect is or how to get it. All that convincing him to marry you will do is increase the odds of a divorce in your future.

At least if you stay unmarried, when you inevitably break up, you won’t be a divorcee, you’ll just have a paranoid ex-boyfriend in your past instead of an ex-husband.

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*Excepting same-sex marriages … sort of.  The reason why queer people fought so hard for the right to marry, as opposed to “different but equal” (which they weren’t) civil unions, was partly because of this exact “respect” argument.

As long as same-sex marriages were illegal, same sex partners could not pass themselves off as “married” and get the same respect, because the people who don’t respect them knew that their “marriage” could not be legal and therefore they did not consider their marriages valid.  So they fought for the social recognition of their unions as part of a larger issue of validating and legitimizing their existence and their relationships, which, in turn, was part of a larger issue addressing the inequity and discrimination of an entire class of people based on who they love.

However, if it is generally known that two people are *able* to get married, then it is possible to just pass themselves off as married without the state-issued license and they will receive that societal “respect” because nobody actually checks for licenses when people say that they’re married, as long as they believe that those people have the ability to get married.

So, for an entire class of people to demand social “respect” through being allowed to access certain legal benefits that were previously only available to one class of people, that is a different situation than an individual person wishing to tie themselves to another individual person in order to get “respect” for the association.  And that is what I meant by it being the worst reason to get married.

Fighting for class equality is not in the same camp as individuals using their romantic relationships to force those other individual people around them to “respect” them.

What's The Difference Between Non-Sexual Relationships & Platonic Friends?

Explaining the difference is still very difficult for me. It's very much a "I know the feeling when I feel it" kind of thing. This is just how the difference manifests *to me*.

www.quora.com/Whats-the-difference-between-a-romantic-relationship-without-sex-and-a-best-friend-How-are-the-feelings-different/answer/Joreth-Innkeeper

Q. What's the difference between a romantic relationship without sex and a best friend? How are the feelings different?

A. For me, the difference is intention.

In a friendship, everything is taken on an as-is basis. We are friends, until we aren’t. We hang out together, unless we don’t. Although there might be *hope* for continuity and longevity, there is no *expectation* of such. I go for long stretches of time not talking to my friends, and when we get together again, it’s as if no time as passed. We just pick up where we left off.

This works for me in both platonic friendships and FWB type friendships.

But, for me, *romance* includes the intention of continuity and longevity. We have more of a commitment to actively working on the ongoing-ness of the relationship, whatever the structure of that relationship might be. It’s less of a default of being together and more of an active participation in being together, with explicit plans and intentions to continue things or work on things or being together.

It’s a very subtle difference, and not something that outside observers are likely to be able to see. But from within a relationship, it *feels* very different to the participants.

There is not a difference in the *potential* level of emotional intimacy.  Each of my friends and partners has their own unique amount of emotional intimacy, because that intimacy is made up of the two of us in that relationship.

So, a "best friend" and an LTR partner might have a comparable amount of emotional intimacy.  But it will be different kinds of intimacy because the two *people* are two different people but not because the two relationships are different relationship categories.

Because of the nature of each intimate connection being unique, sure, there are friends with lower amounts of intimacy than romantic partners. But they're not lower in intimacy because they're *friends*, they're lower in intimacy because that's just how that relationship worked out.

I suppose that, because of the nature of my romantic relationships having *intention* of continuity and longevity, that sort of by default, I do have an expectation of emotional intimacy there.  I don't have those intentions with friendships, so I don't have an expectation of the amount of emotional intimacy, so my friendships can range all over the map.

Same with sexual relationships - just because we're having sex, I don't expect there to be emotional intimacy by default, so my sexual relationships range from no intimacy to all the intimacy.  But I also tend to be more descriptive than prescriptive, so it's not so much "I have decided that we will be romantic partners, therefore I now have expectations of emotional intimacy".

It's more like "I noticed that this relationship really wants to be emotionally intimate and I would like to be intentional about our continuity and longevity, which would make this a romantic relationship for me".

Some of my non-romantic friendships have that same level of emotional intimacy, but I don't feel the pull to make things intentional.  That's what makes them not romantic to me.

And then, just to make things even muddier, I do have some platonic, non-romantic relationships with some degree of intention, and those relationships get categorized in my head as "non-romantic family".  Those are even harder for me to tease out and explain why they're different, though.  I think it has to do with the specific things that I feel intentional about.

What If I Want More Than Casual Sex With My Ex?

www.quora.com/I-m-having-casual-sex-with-my-ex-We-only-talk-to-meet-There-s-still-feelings-from-both-sides-and-I-sometimes-want-to-text-just-to-chat-but-I-don-t-do-it-We-are-not-compatible-to-be-togheter-but-I-can-t-doing-this-Is/answer/Joreth-Innkeeper

Q.  I’m having “casual sex” with my ex.We only talk to meet. There’s still feelings from both sides and I sometimes want to text just to chat, but I don’t do it. We are not compatible to be togheter but I can’t doing this. Is this normal? What to do?

A.  I’m not too worried about what’s “normal”.  I prefer to pay more attention to what makes me happy.  I find that not being concerned with what’s “normal” actually contributes to my happiness in general.  One of the things that makes me happy is finding the right relationship structure for the people involved.  There are plenty of people who are more compatible with me as casual sex partners but who don’t make very good long term romantic partners.  And vice versa.

Sometimes it takes us a couple of different tries at finding out which structure fits us best.  And sometimes certain structures work best for us *at that point in time* but not at others.

If you are not happy with a casual sex relationship with your ex, then this relationship isn’t working for you and that’s OK.  You don’t have to have casual sex, and you don’t have to have it with any particular person.  But there’s nothing “abnormal” or wrong with people who tried a romantic relationship, discovered that they weren’t compatible in that way, and who then try a casual sex relationship with each other afterwards.

A not very popular opinion that I hold is that everyone needs to take some “cool off” time after the end of a relationship before they try to transition to something else.  After ending a romantic relationship with your ex, you ought to go no-contact with them for a period of time.  This gives your brain a chance to “reset” itself regarding your feelings for them and to break old habits.

If, after having the chance to mourn the end of your relationship and start out fresh, you meet up again and discover that you have some sexual chemistry where a casual sex relationship would be appropriate for both of you, then great! Have fun!

But, chances are, if you’re not happy in this casual sex relationship, then you probably jumped into it too soon after the breakup when your brain hasn’t had a chance to grieve and move on.  So now you’re confused and experience mixed emotions and holding onto something that is over because the old habits are conflicting with the new structure.

I’d recommend not talking to your ex for a set time limit.  Don’t ghost them - that’s cruel.  But say that you need time to process your breakup so that your old romantic feelings can stop interfering with your new post-breakup relationship, and that you’ll call them in a few months.  Then take some time and really go through that breakup.  Then you can call them up again with a clear head if you’re still interested in some other kind of relationship with them.