Why I'm A Bottom And Not A Sub...

[joreth]

A playfellow I'll be, but no man's toy.  A partner, helper, but no one's servant nor slave.  I will be captain of my fate and commander of my destiny, though the path I may share and the course I chart be followed by others.  What I have, I'll share, but I'll not give it over.  What I am, I am, and I'll not change it  What I will be, I will be, by my own will and no other.
~Mercedes Lackey, The Fairy Godmother

...although this does not preclude me from voluntarily giving up "control" in a temporary BDSM setting with very particular individiuals, but this is how I see life in general.

Comments

[james-the-evil1.livejournal.com]

COOL quote! *gaks it for my Quotes page*

[joreth]

Yeah, color me surprised to find it in a fantasy novel about how Fairy Godmothers get their jobs.

I thought about this whole long elaboration on what it means to me and the difference between that mindset in general and the voluntary giving up of "control" in a BDSM setting.

Then I decided the quote was just shiny enough to stand on its own.

[funky-firelord.livejournal.com]

That's a nice quote I like it.
The phrase somtimes bottoms but never subs comes to mind.

Firelord

[joreth]

hence the title of my entry :-)

[funky-firelord.livejournal.com]

Oh yes, had not noticed that, LJing at work it's a speed reading art.

How do you define and realte to bottom rather than sub then joreth?, as myself someone who is by any means still new to a lot of BDSM. That I would say I Top but don't Dom as well, as I don't get pleasure of Domming them, but I do at seeing them enjoying it?

Does that makes sense?
Thought you of all people would know what I mean.

Firelord

[joreth]

That's a little more difficult for me to answer, since I don't have it totally worked out in my head yet (one of the reasons I decided to just quote and not elaborate). Basically, I enjoy sensation and even certain role-playing where someone else has power over me so that puts me in the bottom position. But that power is always given to the person who is topping me, not taken, and it can be revoked by me at any time, so their power over me is an illusion for the sake of the scene. Safewords, their concern for my safety, hard boundaries, all these are limitations put in place that protect me (as the bottom) and give me the "control" even when I am the more submissive position in the scene. "Topping from the bottom" is another common phrase I've heard to describe what I do.

Some Doms and subs may chime in and say that's what they're doing too, but it just doesn't *feel* right to me, if that makes any sense. Even when I allow someone to flog me, or I engage in a relationship that allows for resistance games, I always consider myself their equal, never their submissive or subordinate, even in the middle of a scene. I have a difficult time wrapping my brain around the concept of Dom and sub because I am *never* sub to anyone. When someone gets to top me, it is because I allow it. When someone is above me in, say, a job position, they are not my superior. They may have more knowledge or more experience than I do, but they are not superior to me and I may have skills or information that they don't have, making me an equally valuable contribution to the company. When I am in school, my teachers are not my "betters" or supperiors either for the same reason. They have more knowledge (sometimes) than I do in a particular subject, but I have more than they do on another subject. We are equals. This attitude is quite annoying to people in positions of authority!

It's not even that I don't recognize when someone has authority over me, like cops for instance.

I don't think I'm explaining this well. It's still a "feeling" and not rational at this point. But the idea of being "submissive" just rubs me the wrong way, even though I enjoy being flogged and I enjoy resistance play. I do not enjoy someone having control over my life, I do not follow orders and I do not desire to *please* someone else (this is different from the give-and-take pleasure of a non-BDSM setting ... I often enjoy giving head, for example, with no need for reciprocation, but it is contextual). Even in a role-playing setting where I give someone the power over me voluntarily, these things don't work for me. Physical sensation that includes someone else inflicting pain doesn't hit this emotional button and I enjoy the sensation. Resistance play is fun for me because I like wresting, it's again, a physical sensation. There is probably some emotional and mental stuff wrapped up there that I haven't uncovered yet, but I haven't had much of a chance to explore this area, so I may have a different answer in the future.

I guess most of what I enjoy in BDSM has to do with physical sensation and not emotional or mental domination. I don't like humiliation games, for example, even though I rationally understand that calling someone a whore who likes to be called a whore is not disrespectful (and in fact is the opposite). When given anything resembling an order, I tend to snap out of the scene headspace and automatically rebel against it. I am far too independent, and I *like* being independent and I value independence to really understand the mental and emotional desire for submissiveness. But what other people don't understand about me is that this desire for independence is not a rejection of sharing my life or my heart, and it's not a wall blocking intimacy. It's merely a belief that I am equal and capable of handling anything on my own, and it's all my choice. That doesn't mean that I don't also want another equal to share my life with and develop a relationship where we *can* depend on each other ... just that we don't *have* to depend on each other.

continued...

[joreth]

The Dom/top side of things, though, is even more undefined for me. I tend to be extremely domineering in regular life (someone once said I was obviously an Alpha but that I didn't have to be the only Alpha in the room), and I don't like that position in a romantic relationship. I don't like being "in charge" and I only take charge in anything when it's clear there is no one else to do it or whoever is already in charge is doing a poor job. I am everyone's equal, and therefore my partners are equal to me too. I can't be in control of them, in charge of them, if they are supposed to be my equal and I get uncomfortable when someone tries to give me the position of In Charge in a relationship.

For topping, for being the physically dominant one during a scene (or overall in the sexual aspect of a relationship), I thought I didn't like that. I'm starting to think I may like it (making me a switch), but I think I may be more vulnerable as a top than as a bottom, so I am much more hesitant to explore topping, primarily because I don't feel secure in my relationships to expose that level of vulnerability at this point. I'm very happy in my current relationships, but they are all either very new and still developing, or there are acknowledged roadblocks that are preventing us from investing too much emotionally at this time, although it is desired on both sides to change that if the situation can be altered.

I'm afraid that wasn't very clear, but it's not very clear to me at this point either. My sweetie tacit can often put things into words that I find complicated and difficult, so maybe I'll talk more with him about this and post a clarification.

Re: continued...

[funky-firelord.livejournal.com]

Wow, a reply worthy of some thought on my part.. thanks

I think I understand, let me see.

But that power is always given to the person who is topping me, not taken, and it can be revoked by me at any time, so their power over me is an illusion for the sake of the scene

I think the same way about that as well, I think the person topping no matter the scene or situation is always given the power, no matter if the sub say’s they do so or not. I myself think all D/S situation are a illusion, at least in part in the west the law protects us with some rights that we can never give away. If the D beats there S no matter if the S asked for it or not, the law would still see it as abuse. S can not give her rights away as far as the law goes and as far as our socity goes.

"Topping from the bottom" is another common phrase I've heard to describe what I do. Yes that one I hear most often used by D’s who often think there sub is not sub enough, or as a insult (Not that I think your using it That way), just what I have heard. But in a way I like it, IMO the D if anything should giving there S what they need, and how often does a D know another person so well that they can fulfil there every need without some form of guidance from S on how and what they do.

). Even in a role-playing setting where I give someone the power over me voluntarily

The expression that I use is “you agree to play the role” of S or D or whatever. For me that means I am playing a part as it’s gets the other person off, I am pressing there buttons because they like that, not because it’s pressing my own buttons to do it to them.

I guess what it boils down to is that for some people being whipped or tied up gets them off, but also some others get off on serving others or being oppressed, As well as the act of whipping. I think the conclusion comes where one assumes one= the other. That being whipped automatically means you must also get off on being subjugated.
But this does not appear to be so. At least in my own experience

I am far too independent, and I *like* being independent and I value independence to really understand the mental and emotional desire for submissiveness. But what other people don't understand about me is that this desire for independence is not a rejection of sharing my life or my heart, and it's not a wall blocking intimacy. It's merely a belief that I am equal and capable of handling anything on my own, and it's all my choice

I think you have hit the nail on the head there Joreth, you seem to be a strong minded person, I am the same, this might explain why we have a similar mind space on this issue. I think it’s a good sign of balance if you are strong minded but understand that you don’t have to be the one appearing in control to still be in a personal position of strength and be comfortable in that zone. Case in point Faery like to tie me down, I like it too but I don’t feel I’m putting myself in a position of weakness, because I am still very sure that I have control, control in that if I asked it, I would be let up.

so I am much more hesitant to explore topping, primarily because I don't feel secure in my relationships to expose that level of vulnerability at this point.

*nods* Yes I see what you mean, I have always thought that the TOP or Dom has a huge responsibility because of the nature of the position, some friends of mine have a full time D/S situation and no safe words at the S request. I just feel it must put such a huge stress on things the D has to get it right first time every time without any feedback..

I'm afraid that wasn't very clear, but it's not very clear to me at this point either. My sweetie tacit can often put things into words that I find complicated and difficult, so maybe I'll talk more with him about this and post a clarification

Yes tacit does have a way with words, was why I friended you and him from reading your forum posts on PMM, I found your posts insightful always worth a read.

Hope I’ve kind of made sense..

Firelord

Re: continued...

[joreth]

It's difficult for me to give proper credit to what the Doms & subs are doing psychologically, and to really say how what I'm doing is "different" since I don't fully understand it. I've heard "topping from the bottom" as both an insult and a simple explanation comment with no judgement attached.

Yes, I see a difference in enjoying being tied up or feeling pain from being "dominated". There are a whole lot of categories in the BDSM subject and most people enjoy only a few of them, certainly not *all* of them. I think it's even possible for someone to enjoy being dominated and humiliated but to not like whipping or bondage. There are nearly infinate number of combinations of subtopics in BDSM that a person can enjoy and that should be OK. Fortunately, I don't meet too many One True Wayers in the BDSM community. I'm not very active in it, so that might help ;-)

I recently had a conversation with a partner who wants me to top him. I initially turned him down and had to do some thinking about why. So far what I've come up with is that he and I have an intentionally low-intimacy relationship, a casual FWB kinda thing. Topping him, for me, requires some assumptions that I am not comfortable making in a casual partnership. It requires me to know him psychologically, for him to put a great deal of trust in me, and for me to assume that, when I take control of him, that he *wants* me to do so. In a casual relationship, I can't make those assumptions because the relationshp has no sense of permanance, no committment, no stated intentions of being together, no intimate discussions of our psychological makeup, no framework for caring for the unexpected "hot buttons" that BDSM might bring out. The relationship could end at any time, for any or no reason. I don't have the confidence that my advances would be welcome at any given time.

For some people, and for certain relationships, these kinds of concerns aren't applicable, so I suppose a Top position isn't necessarily stressful. But it puts me in a position of vulnerability because I have to assume my actions are wanted, and I can't ever assume that my actions will be well-received in this situation. He might one day just decide he's done playing with me (as theoretically so could I).

Hmm, unexpected processing ... must go think