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Myth: Women Don't Like Porn / Aren't Visually Stimulated
Now, I don't doubt for a moment that some women truly aren't visually stimulated. I don't even doubt that many women aren't. The point is that not ALL women function the same way. I also happen to know for a fact that there are some heterosexual, sexually active males who don't really get porn. Because, and here's a shocker, men aren't all the same either.
But, back to the point. Some women are visually stimulated / enjoy porn. I'm one of them. I don't get off on pictures so much, but video, and especially live action! Now THAT wil get my motor revving. I like going to strip clubs, I love watching my friends have sex at the all-too-infrequent-but-not-uncommon orgies and play parties, I like strangers at BDSM clubs, and I like surfing the internet for videos. Audio doesn't do much for me unless it's someone I know personally, and it's that personal aspect of it that makes a voice in my ear a very intimate activity and oh-so-hot. Which is why I like phone sex and why a man growling his pleasure in my ear tickles me all the way down my throat in an incredibly pleasurable way. But I could mute an internet video and it would work just as well - possibly better if the soundtrack is cheesy or there's an obvious voice-over, or if the dialog and/or sex sounds are just annoying. Because, really, it's the visual stimulation that gets me.
In fact, when I'm interested in sex but having trouble being physically ready for it, a mirror, or other people nearby to watch, or a video (in that order) is a great help. Just by the way my room happens to be set up, I can see myself and my partner in my full-length dress mirror when we do it doggie-style on my bed. I've been idly considering trying to rig up the mirror to sit lengthwise, to get more of us, and to be able to see from other positions. When I'm lacking all visual stimulation, I close my eyes and imagine something.
For many complicated reasons that I'll address in another post (and have in the past), my sex drive ... fluctuates. I go for periods of months at a time without being interested in sex at all. The longest time was a year and a half before I developed any emotional interest in sex or any physical sexual response. This can be very frustrating for my partners, and it is usually frustrating to me - not because I want to have sex and am unable (because I don't want to, hence the non-existent libido), but because I get upset with people who want to have sex with me, making my interest in sex lower even further, resulting in a downward spiral of asexuality. In fact, this is why orgasm denial doesn't work for me. If I don't come - eh. If I'm denied orgasm for long enough, my body gets bored and stops being turned on. When I hit one of these lulls and I don't have an orgasm in a while, I'll have a wet dream and then go on being uninterested and physically unresponsive in my waking life.
This happened on a fairly regular basis for most of my post-pubescent life.
Until I turned 29.
Now, it wasn't like a light switch on my 29th birthday, but about 3-ish years ago, I found myself in one of my sexually-interested phases, fueled by NRE and the possibility of exploring a totally new type of fetish relationship, then followed about a year later by a particularly skilled other-new partner, and it just never went away. Usually I can expect to hit a lull every 6-9 months or so and have it last for about 4-6 months or so, on average. But, for some reason, possibly a hormonal change, it just didn't happen that way.
Of course, I had *days* where I wasn't turned on, because I was tired, or sick, or whatever. But my overall interest in sex never waned. So I was actually enjoying this sensation of being turned on ALL THE TIME. I had to learn how to function with my libido in high gear. It actually made life more interesting, it added a quality to it like adding a new spice to a bland-but-enjoyable dish. It colored everything I did and everything I experienced with this sexual tension. I began to enjoy the sexual tension for its own sake, not necessarily wishing to have orgasms to break the tension (even though the orgasms only broke the tension very briefly, for a change). Work was an awful lot of fun and a lot of flirting happened. The sexual tension in some of my friendships ramped up to a whole new level and I actually came to enjoy that all on its own. Although I would like to explore what this tension keeps hinting at, if I never do, I'm enjoying the tension all on its own.
So, anyway, again I'm getting carried away with background information.
I've been in this sexual high for the last 3 years. Then, recently, in the space of 3 months I experienced two of the most painful breakups I've ever been through, one right after the other.
And my libido came crashing down.
For the first time in 3 years, I had to experience life without the hazy red filter of sexual desire covering everything. And I realized I didn't like it. Not one bit.
Now, my current sweeties are actually *really* good at eliciting a sexual response out of me from a cold start, so at least they don't have to suffer through my lulls like my past partners had to. But it helps that I actively *want* to be coaxed out of my lull, so I'm willing to let them try. But it doesn't change the fact that my libido just isn't where it was for the past couple of years. And I miss it. I can get turned on when my partners are actively trying to turn me on, but at all other times I'm just ... neutral. And that just sucks.
So, very recently I had the opportunity to be around a couple who have sex A LOT. And, for a variety of reasons, although I was invited to participate, my participation was limited-to-non-existent.
But, I went about my business and they went about theirs, and their sounds often teased a smile out of me, even when I was focused on doing other things. And I managed to watch a bit. And a funny thing happened.
My libido returned.
Now, I don't know if this will last indefinitely like the last 3-year stint, but I got to spend the day following this encounter in that pleasant red hazy sex filter again. And I missed it!
One of my most favorite sights to see is a man and woman in missionary position with her leg bent sharply at the hip and her leg curled at the knee around his hip. That line in the hip and the length of skin from the stomach to the upper thigh is probably the absolute sexiest sight there is for me. And I when I saw the couple like that, I immediately zeroed in on her hip and leg wrapped around him and I've been unable to stop thinking about sex ever since.
I enjoy watching just to be watching. I don't have to be invited to join. I don't feel left out. In fact, just being allowed to watch is a form of participation, to me. And when I'm sick or injured or tired or just in a lull, not being invited to join doesn't put a damper on the event because I like watching that much.
It's kind of tough, though, because I don't really know *how* to just sit and watch someone have sex, live, without acting creepy about it. But that's another journal entry, I suppose. The point is, I like to watch even when I'm not allowed or not invited or not up to participating. It doesn't lose anything for me, and sometimes, I'd actually prefer watching to actively participating.
Sometimes I don't get physically turned on when I watch, but I still really enjoy it. It actually means a great deal to me, emotionally, to be invited to watch. As I said, I consider being a live audience member a form of "participation", so I feel as though I *have* shared something when someone lets me watch, either solo or with partners. This is a little different from a "public" sex session, like at a play party, because the audience role is a little more impersonal - even when the audience is a select party guest list. I've still "shared" something with those being watched, but more like an intimate club performance, rather than me, personally, sharing in the sexual activity with "partners". Because the voyuer/exhibitionist relationship is actually its own unique relationship. But, more than half of the time, watching *does* turn me on.
I enjoy watching so much, even when I don't actively get turned on, that I will often just have porn playing in the background - something to catch my eye as I work on my computer or clean my room. When I have the chance to have someone have sex in front of me, I enjoy equally just sitting and watching, as well as going around, doing stuff while I can see them, maybe out of the corner of my eye, or maybe just by turning my head. It was even actually really nice to be able to have someone fucking in the same bed as me while I was trying to sleep. Now, if I had to wake up early at a particular time and they were keeping me up, I might have been a little grumpy. But, as it turned out, I just happened to be sleepy and they were willing to stay in the room when I reassured them that their sex would not disturb me.
On a side note: Memory Foam Mattresses ... for when one of you likes to have sex with someone without disturbing anyone else in the bed! It helped a lot that the mattress hardly moved or bounced at all and I could watch or not watch in total comfort. I highly recommend memory foam mattresses to anyone else who might find themselves in this situation!
But back to the point ... again. I love watching. I love looking. I love seeing. And I am female. I like to have porn playing or people fucking around me as I go about my business even when I'm not turned on. And watching people have sex sometimes has the power to kick-start my flagging libido. I started out watching back in my monogamy days when my libido would start to flag and my partners wanted sex when I didn't. I would encourage them to masturbate so that they didn't have to suffer through complete celibacy with me, and occasionally, they wouldn't bother to leave the room to masturbate and, even more occasionally, I would sometimes get turned on by their masturbation and eventually join in.
I don't feel excluded from watching someone without participating because I feel that watching is its own form of participation. I used to feel excluded in my very early days of polyamory when I didn't know any other polyamorists, so I had to make do with monogamists who used me as a fuckbuddy until a "real girlfriend" came along. Then I would feel "excluded" when I saw them making out with their new girlfriends, knowing that I was dumped for her, and also knowing that when their relationships ended, he'd come back to me anyway, but in the meantime, I was alone.
But, since refusing to get into those kinds of unsatisfying relationships anymore, I no longer feel excluded when I get to watch someone have sex, even if I am not invited to participate. I think it's because any invitation for me to watch is a conscious invitation by both parties, not an accidental viewing of something I envied. There's also the lesson I learned in the last couple of years to enjoy sexual tension for its own sake, so I no longer have this sense of something-I-can't-have.
Learning to enjoy all aspects of sex as elements all their own, as opposed to merely steps leading up to a finish line, has really broadened and expanded my sexual enjoyment. If nothing is "foreplay" or a precurser to a goal, then everything is enjoyed on its own merits because nothing is a "let down" simply because it didn't reach that goal. Except for the nipples, as I briefly discussed in my last journal entry ... those are just too sensitive, if you're gonna touch them, you better be willing to do something about the reaction they cause, otherwise, leave them alone. But that's another topic.
Some women are visually stimulated and I am most certainly one of them. I love to watch. I love to watch my partners with their other partners. I love to watch my friends even when I am not an active participant. I love to watch strangers. I love to watch. There are certain specific sights that will actively turn me on, even when I'm having a stupid girl emotions-interfering-with-sex-drive moments. I love that hip area, I love the site of a man's ass as he pumps, I love people's faces during orgasm, I love tender gazes, I love seeing red welts and handprints, I love cocks driving in and out, I love seeing stomach muscles bunch as they contract and expand. I am a voyeur and I am a woman.
Now, I don't doubt for a moment that some women truly aren't visually stimulated. I don't even doubt that many women aren't. The point is that not ALL women function the same way. I also happen to know for a fact that there are some heterosexual, sexually active males who don't really get porn. Because, and here's a shocker, men aren't all the same either.
But, back to the point. Some women are visually stimulated / enjoy porn. I'm one of them. I don't get off on pictures so much, but video, and especially live action! Now THAT wil get my motor revving. I like going to strip clubs, I love watching my friends have sex at the all-too-infrequent-but-not-uncommon orgies and play parties, I like strangers at BDSM clubs, and I like surfing the internet for videos. Audio doesn't do much for me unless it's someone I know personally, and it's that personal aspect of it that makes a voice in my ear a very intimate activity and oh-so-hot. Which is why I like phone sex and why a man growling his pleasure in my ear tickles me all the way down my throat in an incredibly pleasurable way. But I could mute an internet video and it would work just as well - possibly better if the soundtrack is cheesy or there's an obvious voice-over, or if the dialog and/or sex sounds are just annoying. Because, really, it's the visual stimulation that gets me.
In fact, when I'm interested in sex but having trouble being physically ready for it, a mirror, or other people nearby to watch, or a video (in that order) is a great help. Just by the way my room happens to be set up, I can see myself and my partner in my full-length dress mirror when we do it doggie-style on my bed. I've been idly considering trying to rig up the mirror to sit lengthwise, to get more of us, and to be able to see from other positions. When I'm lacking all visual stimulation, I close my eyes and imagine something.
For many complicated reasons that I'll address in another post (and have in the past), my sex drive ... fluctuates. I go for periods of months at a time without being interested in sex at all. The longest time was a year and a half before I developed any emotional interest in sex or any physical sexual response. This can be very frustrating for my partners, and it is usually frustrating to me - not because I want to have sex and am unable (because I don't want to, hence the non-existent libido), but because I get upset with people who want to have sex with me, making my interest in sex lower even further, resulting in a downward spiral of asexuality. In fact, this is why orgasm denial doesn't work for me. If I don't come - eh. If I'm denied orgasm for long enough, my body gets bored and stops being turned on. When I hit one of these lulls and I don't have an orgasm in a while, I'll have a wet dream and then go on being uninterested and physically unresponsive in my waking life.
This happened on a fairly regular basis for most of my post-pubescent life.
Until I turned 29.
Now, it wasn't like a light switch on my 29th birthday, but about 3-ish years ago, I found myself in one of my sexually-interested phases, fueled by NRE and the possibility of exploring a totally new type of fetish relationship, then followed about a year later by a particularly skilled other-new partner, and it just never went away. Usually I can expect to hit a lull every 6-9 months or so and have it last for about 4-6 months or so, on average. But, for some reason, possibly a hormonal change, it just didn't happen that way.
Of course, I had *days* where I wasn't turned on, because I was tired, or sick, or whatever. But my overall interest in sex never waned. So I was actually enjoying this sensation of being turned on ALL THE TIME. I had to learn how to function with my libido in high gear. It actually made life more interesting, it added a quality to it like adding a new spice to a bland-but-enjoyable dish. It colored everything I did and everything I experienced with this sexual tension. I began to enjoy the sexual tension for its own sake, not necessarily wishing to have orgasms to break the tension (even though the orgasms only broke the tension very briefly, for a change). Work was an awful lot of fun and a lot of flirting happened. The sexual tension in some of my friendships ramped up to a whole new level and I actually came to enjoy that all on its own. Although I would like to explore what this tension keeps hinting at, if I never do, I'm enjoying the tension all on its own.
So, anyway, again I'm getting carried away with background information.
I've been in this sexual high for the last 3 years. Then, recently, in the space of 3 months I experienced two of the most painful breakups I've ever been through, one right after the other.
And my libido came crashing down.
For the first time in 3 years, I had to experience life without the hazy red filter of sexual desire covering everything. And I realized I didn't like it. Not one bit.
Now, my current sweeties are actually *really* good at eliciting a sexual response out of me from a cold start, so at least they don't have to suffer through my lulls like my past partners had to. But it helps that I actively *want* to be coaxed out of my lull, so I'm willing to let them try. But it doesn't change the fact that my libido just isn't where it was for the past couple of years. And I miss it. I can get turned on when my partners are actively trying to turn me on, but at all other times I'm just ... neutral. And that just sucks.
So, very recently I had the opportunity to be around a couple who have sex A LOT. And, for a variety of reasons, although I was invited to participate, my participation was limited-to-non-existent.
But, I went about my business and they went about theirs, and their sounds often teased a smile out of me, even when I was focused on doing other things. And I managed to watch a bit. And a funny thing happened.
My libido returned.
Now, I don't know if this will last indefinitely like the last 3-year stint, but I got to spend the day following this encounter in that pleasant red hazy sex filter again. And I missed it!
One of my most favorite sights to see is a man and woman in missionary position with her leg bent sharply at the hip and her leg curled at the knee around his hip. That line in the hip and the length of skin from the stomach to the upper thigh is probably the absolute sexiest sight there is for me. And I when I saw the couple like that, I immediately zeroed in on her hip and leg wrapped around him and I've been unable to stop thinking about sex ever since.I enjoy watching just to be watching. I don't have to be invited to join. I don't feel left out. In fact, just being allowed to watch is a form of participation, to me. And when I'm sick or injured or tired or just in a lull, not being invited to join doesn't put a damper on the event because I like watching that much.
It's kind of tough, though, because I don't really know *how* to just sit and watch someone have sex, live, without acting creepy about it. But that's another journal entry, I suppose. The point is, I like to watch even when I'm not allowed or not invited or not up to participating. It doesn't lose anything for me, and sometimes, I'd actually prefer watching to actively participating.
Sometimes I don't get physically turned on when I watch, but I still really enjoy it. It actually means a great deal to me, emotionally, to be invited to watch. As I said, I consider being a live audience member a form of "participation", so I feel as though I *have* shared something when someone lets me watch, either solo or with partners. This is a little different from a "public" sex session, like at a play party, because the audience role is a little more impersonal - even when the audience is a select party guest list. I've still "shared" something with those being watched, but more like an intimate club performance, rather than me, personally, sharing in the sexual activity with "partners". Because the voyuer/exhibitionist relationship is actually its own unique relationship. But, more than half of the time, watching *does* turn me on.
I enjoy watching so much, even when I don't actively get turned on, that I will often just have porn playing in the background - something to catch my eye as I work on my computer or clean my room. When I have the chance to have someone have sex in front of me, I enjoy equally just sitting and watching, as well as going around, doing stuff while I can see them, maybe out of the corner of my eye, or maybe just by turning my head. It was even actually really nice to be able to have someone fucking in the same bed as me while I was trying to sleep. Now, if I had to wake up early at a particular time and they were keeping me up, I might have been a little grumpy. But, as it turned out, I just happened to be sleepy and they were willing to stay in the room when I reassured them that their sex would not disturb me.
On a side note: Memory Foam Mattresses ... for when one of you likes to have sex with someone without disturbing anyone else in the bed! It helped a lot that the mattress hardly moved or bounced at all and I could watch or not watch in total comfort. I highly recommend memory foam mattresses to anyone else who might find themselves in this situation!
But back to the point ... again. I love watching. I love looking. I love seeing. And I am female. I like to have porn playing or people fucking around me as I go about my business even when I'm not turned on. And watching people have sex sometimes has the power to kick-start my flagging libido. I started out watching back in my monogamy days when my libido would start to flag and my partners wanted sex when I didn't. I would encourage them to masturbate so that they didn't have to suffer through complete celibacy with me, and occasionally, they wouldn't bother to leave the room to masturbate and, even more occasionally, I would sometimes get turned on by their masturbation and eventually join in.
I don't feel excluded from watching someone without participating because I feel that watching is its own form of participation. I used to feel excluded in my very early days of polyamory when I didn't know any other polyamorists, so I had to make do with monogamists who used me as a fuckbuddy until a "real girlfriend" came along. Then I would feel "excluded" when I saw them making out with their new girlfriends, knowing that I was dumped for her, and also knowing that when their relationships ended, he'd come back to me anyway, but in the meantime, I was alone.
But, since refusing to get into those kinds of unsatisfying relationships anymore, I no longer feel excluded when I get to watch someone have sex, even if I am not invited to participate. I think it's because any invitation for me to watch is a conscious invitation by both parties, not an accidental viewing of something I envied. There's also the lesson I learned in the last couple of years to enjoy sexual tension for its own sake, so I no longer have this sense of something-I-can't-have.
Learning to enjoy all aspects of sex as elements all their own, as opposed to merely steps leading up to a finish line, has really broadened and expanded my sexual enjoyment. If nothing is "foreplay" or a precurser to a goal, then everything is enjoyed on its own merits because nothing is a "let down" simply because it didn't reach that goal. Except for the nipples, as I briefly discussed in my last journal entry ... those are just too sensitive, if you're gonna touch them, you better be willing to do something about the reaction they cause, otherwise, leave them alone. But that's another topic.
Some women are visually stimulated and I am most certainly one of them. I love to watch. I love to watch my partners with their other partners. I love to watch my friends even when I am not an active participant. I love to watch strangers. I love to watch. There are certain specific sights that will actively turn me on, even when I'm having a stupid girl emotions-interfering-with-sex-drive moments. I love that hip area, I love the site of a man's ass as he pumps, I love people's faces during orgasm, I love tender gazes, I love seeing red welts and handprints, I love cocks driving in and out, I love seeing stomach muscles bunch as they contract and expand. I am a voyeur and I am a woman.
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no subject
Date: 6/21/09 05:17 am (UTC)From:I am not sure I could say that I have ever experienced a lull like you do, though if I am involved with someone and the emotional connection is weak or missing then so to is my sex drive. I have been in a dry spell for 2.5 years now because I won't settle for a FwB, and I miss sex, the red haze of daily lust, a man growling in my ear... very much.
So yeah, I get where you are coming from. I too am a voyeur and a woman and I love it. :)
no subject
Date: 6/22/09 04:29 am (UTC)From:no subject
Date: 6/21/09 05:34 am (UTC)From:However, watching real people feels very different for me. How I feel about it depends on the details, but at its best, I really like it. The best time I ever got to watch two people having sex, it just felt very warm and loving. The way I usually try to explain it is imagine two people are fighting. You're not part of that fight, they're just fighting and you're in the room. Imagine how uncomfortable it is and how unpleasant it is to have that in your proximity. Now imagine the opposite of that, two people expressing love and kindness to each other. I found it very soothing and sweet. Often though it's just interesting to me. I like getting to learn more about other people and see more aspects of them. But it isn't usually sexual to me nor is it always as wonderfully soothing. But it's generally a positive experience as long as everyone involved is okay with what's going on. (Walking in on people who don't want you there is unpleasant as was the time I woke up to realize my college roommate was having sex with her boyfriend. I knew I wasn't welcome, but I wasn't exactly consulted before they started nor did I have very good options, so I just did my best to pretend to still be asleep. This was not pleasant. Although it was fascinating and I got a really funny story about it because it then devolved into them having a particularly wince-inducing argument about their sex life.)
However, people definitely vary.
no subject
Date: 6/22/09 04:28 am (UTC)From:But when I watch someone I know in person, I don't necessarily get turned on, and if I do, it's often a slow build like it was in the case of the example in my post. But it's the connection, the sharing of the event by being allowed or invited to participate.
As you say, I also enjoy human psychology (I was, after all, a soc. major the first time through college), and I particularly enjoy getting to learn more about other people and see them in other ways. I was particularly fascinated to watch a partner of mine have sex with someone else while I stood across the room, watching them sort of perpendicular to me where their heads were towards my left hand and their feet were towards my right hand, but they were tilted slightly so that their feet were closer to me than their heads. I had never seen him have sex from that angle before, and it was interesting.
But your analogy of being in a room with people fighting is a good one. You're right in that you're not part of the argument, but you still *feel* that emotion, the discomfort and unpleasantness, sort of like a wash over the room. That's kind of what I mean when I say that an audience is a form of participation, because you can participate in the feelings in the room, even when you're not participating in the activity. But I think your analogy is clearer.
And yep, the fact that we get different things out of a visual stimulus is exactly why I have started making these posts :-) I'm not intending to find common ground with my guests here at LJ, although I do enjoy to hear when I'm not alone in one of my weird quirks. I am intending to point out that we're not all the same, which your comment quite amply demonstrates. Thank you for sharing.
no subject
Date: 6/21/09 06:53 am (UTC)From:I encourage you to put mirrors up on your ceiling! I've got a slanted ceiling (part of the roof) with a 4'x3' mirror mounted to it (~$40 bucks from Menards). The mounting hardware (plastic tabs, screws and drywall anchors) that comes with it is sufficient (for 7 years).
I've also got a full length mirror mounted on the wall right next to my bed--when I sit up against the wall on my bed, I'm leaning against the mirror. Again, no problems for the past 7 years.
With the mirrors set up like that, in the missionary position, she can look over my shoulder and see my back, using the mirror on the slanted ceiling. I can see my partner's face when we do it doggie style in the mirror that's mounted to the wall.
I think you should do whatever you like. But I think you would like to put up more mirrors...and write all about what happens.
Hmmmm...I might be projecting a bit with that last sentence.
no subject
Date: 6/22/09 04:32 am (UTC)From:no subject
Date: 6/22/09 05:10 am (UTC)From:Hmmm...the best my late-night addled brain can come up with is a free-standing three-panel folding set of mirrors. (Imagine a full-length mirror with a frame around it. Now imagine two more of them, attached by hinges on the side of the first mirror. The deluxe version would have a smaller mirror attached to the center mirror, which could flip up and be positioned at the correct angle.)
no subject
Date: 6/21/09 07:40 am (UTC)From:no subject
Date: 6/21/09 06:05 pm (UTC)From:no subject
Date: 6/22/09 04:47 am (UTC)From:Now, however, I have an FWB that I *know* is an FWB and that's all I feel for him and that's all he feels for me. It's a completely mutual lack of emotional connection but a strong sexual attraction and it serves both of our needs perfectly.
However, being poly and preferring romantic connection to purely sexual ones, I would, some day, when forced to go through a painful breakup, like experience that breakup while still maintaining an existing, fully sexual, romantic, local partner.
Ever since engaging in poly relationships honestly and openly, I have not actually had 2 or more fully sexual partners at the same time. I've had multiple *boyfriends*, but there was usually some limitation on the sexual behaviour for one reason or another and, in this most recent case, the sweetie I didn't break up with lives in another state and I couldn't physically be near to him while going through the breakups with the 2 other guys.
I am curious to see if my need for an FWB after a breakup goes away if I have a non-limited sexual partner concurrently, so that I can avoid the painful eventual downfall of the FWB that always happens when I'm ready for something more emotionally fulfilling and I discover that the FWB isn't the place to get it.
no subject
Date: 6/22/09 04:38 am (UTC)From:People are always amazed when I admit to actively enjoying porn. I'm also a big fan of porn parties, but those can be difficult to arrange. I have the new Pirates II movie but I haven't watched it yet because
no subject
Date: 6/24/09 04:11 am (UTC)From:I'm all about porn in video form too. I absolutely must have the sound off though, because hearing language makes my analytical brain too active for me to be properly turned on. Also, the dialog in mainstream porn is generally awful.
I also like watching people have sex in my presence, but I've only ever been in that situation with someone I have a sexual relationship with as well, which means that it doesn't take long for me to start thinking, "Hey, when's it my turn?" :)