Sexism And The Victorians

[joreth]

A friend pointed me towards someone's journal who started discussing the concept of sexism in the Vintage Dance scene local to where he lives.  Now, I have no personal exposure to that scene, so I can't really speak on the reality of the situation.  But someone else wrote his own journal entry and veered off a little into the confusing issue of compliments.

I ignored all the scene-specific points, since, as I said, I don't have any first-hand information to bring to the table.  But I did address the concept of compliments.

As a female, I'm bombarded by compliments and come-ons.  Anyone who has read my journal for more than 5 minutes knows all about how I treat people who treat me as a sex object.  I don't see myself as all that attractive (although I recognize that some people do see me as attractive) and I had very little to do with my appearance, so a compliment on my appearance doesn't mean all that much to me.  It's far more meaningful to compliment my skill or my personality.  I've ranted about this many times and I even have a section on my website dedicated towards my favorite compliments.

Now, I know there are lots of people who enjoy being complimented on their appearance and I know there are people who dress very specifically to get attention for their looks.  And that's fine.  The distinction I'm trying to make is to evaluate each person on his or her own merits and give compliments that are meaningful to that individual.  Generic "you look great" compliments are empty and meaningless.

So, I put in my two cents to try and educate this guy on what it's like to be a female and why some of us are just exhausted by the come-ons and why these kinds of compliments are not valuable, as did my friend corpsefairy.  And his response was to tell her, explicitly, to just wear baggy sweats and dumpy clothing if she doesn't want to be noticed.

That is SO not the point!  Why should ANYONE have to dress in baggy sweats to avoid having slobbering idiots falling all over them?  There is a very wide spectrum of clothing and, frankly, we live in a fashion-conscious society and it should be acceptable to dress appropriately for the occasion without wolf-whistles and being turned into a sex-object.  I think there are definately some outfits that are designed to draw attention, and some women who do so intentionally.  But the majority of clothing, either every-day attire or costumes (especially in the Victorian era), are not designed specifically to make someone appreciate our bodies.  They have other functions and just happen to fit some arbitrary rule for "fashionable".

And I think I have the right to wear such clothing without someone thinking that I wore it to get his attention.

This doesn't absolve me of being aware that certain outfits are going to be attention-grabbing.  So yes, it's a little frustrating when women wear little tiny tube tops with glitter and skirts short enough to show ass cleavage and go to a meat-market nightclub who then get pissed at a guy for staring.  I don't envy you guys for being put in that position.  But wearing shorts and a tank top in Florida should not generate wolf-whistles.  Being nude at a nudist party should not generate wolf-whistles.  Wearing a Victorian ballgown at a Victorian ball should not generate wolf-whistles.  

With costumes in particular, it's a sticky issue.  It could be difficult to tell which women are there to get attention for their body and which women are there to get attention for the hundreds of hours of manual labor they put into their creation.  When this guy tried to tell us not to dress a certain way if we don't want to get noticed, I tried to point out that dragging my costumes around behind me on a dress dummy is really not the most efficient way of showcasing my efforts.

There's a spectrum.  There are outfits whose sole purpose is to get you to notice the wearer.  There are outfits designed to hide the wearer.  And there is everything in between.  There are women who want to be appreciated for their appearance and there are women who want to be appreciated for their skill, their mind, their personality, or even just their choice in outfits but not their body specifically.   It's up to the person who wants to pay a compliment to learn something about the individual and give her a compliment tailor-made for her based on what she would feel most meaningful.

And if you can't do that, if you simply must give a generic, empty compliment and/or you do not know the wearer well enough to give a unique and meaningful compliment, a simple "it's lovely to see you" will cover all the potential pitfalls that this landmine of a social situation can generate.

Any other women want to try and explain to him why wearing sweats in public is not the solution?

Comments

[phyrra.livejournal.com]

I'm insulted that someone would say I have to wear baggy sweats or ugly clothes to avoid being hit on. Why can't men be polite and have manners?

I tend to think that I dress nicely (today I'm wearing a sleeveless button up shirt and tan chinos), but you know I wear club gear, goth stuff, etc too. I don't think in any situation that I should have to dress in sweats, which I think are sloppy and reflect poorly on the person wearing them (but that's my opinion no matter the gender if they're worn outside of the house or gym), to avoid annoying attention from men. When I'm dressed in club gear if I get hit on and I don't like it, I tell them I'm in a relationship and not interested. Yes I'm that blunt about it. What I really hate is when they ignore what I say and continue to do it. I feel it's very inappropriate.

I dress for me, because I enjoy how I look in certain clothes. Sometimes I dress for Ray and Dave, because I think they'll like what I'm wearing. But I'm not dressing for random men on the street. I should be able to dress for me and enjoy it, and not be harassed by people.

[joreth]

Yeah, that was essentially what I was trying to say too. Some people just don't seem to get that it is possible to dress a certain way because it pleases ME to do so, not because I want attention from other people. It doesn't please me because of how others perceive me, it please me period.

Although I'm certain people *do* notice me, my point in my choice of attire was not to *get* that notice. And I shouldn't have to dress in a way that makes me feel uncomfortable or unhappy just because some idiot thinks when I dress nice, it's to specifically get his attention.

[corpsefairy.livejournal.com]

What I found especially funny was that in his initial post, he specifically asked what kind of compliments people wanted to hear - and then when I answered his question and explained why, he replied that I obviously had psychological problems!

Also, his defense is a classic blame-the-victim response. He shifts the focus from the person making the comment to the person wearing the costume, and that is entirely missing the point. This is exactly the same as the "she was asking for it" rape defense, writ small. That may sound like exaggeration, but it is the same thing that's going on here. He's expecting women to manage and adjust their behavior out of fear for what men might do, and ignoring the fact that maybe, just maybe, the men shouldn't do it in the first place.

When will people understand that men's behavior is not about what women are doing or wearing - it is about the MEN?

It's absurd to say that women should have to dress modestly if they don't want attention for several reasons. You cover several of them nicely; often tank tops are just practical. Really, though, I (and plenty of other women) have been harassed while wearing bulky, unflattering clothing. The clothing doesn't matter; it's the fact that we're female and some men feel entitled to address us sexually.

Really, what does he expect me to do if I attend Gaskells? Not wear a ballgown? That'd be weird and far less fun. I should be able to go to Gaskells, look fabulous, and not be slimed on. I don't see why that's too much to ask. "Wear sweats" (leaving aside that that would be against the dress code) or "cope with slime" are not acceptable options.

[joreth]

this particularly annoys me because I am often annoyed with people who apologize to me for staring when I walk around a con wearing, say, a copper bikini. Hello! I'm dressing to be looked at!

So I find myself irritated right now because he can't tell the difference between honest and respectful appreciation and harassment, regardless of how subtle it is.

I know that people are going to ogle me when I wear the Leia and that's fine, but if you want to give me a respectful compliment, tell me the construction of the costume is good, not how hot I look in it. And when I say "that kind of compliment doesn't make me feel good", don't then tell me that I must be a mental case because I have different likes and dislikes based on very different life experiences.

[rain-herself.livejournal.com]

I don't think that you should have to dress in sweats. I do think that you (and anyone) should be aware that the things you do affect other people in various ways. I do think that we all have to live in the world, and that means that other people react to us and we react to them, and those reactions aren't always favorable, or the way we would like them to be.

I don't think you will get very far trying to control their reactions, nor do I think it's all that productive to get very pissed off if someone notices you and finds you attractive. That's not saying that you dressed that way *in order to* get their attention, but certain types of clothes *do* get attention, and I think there is a point in what he was saying, in that you should be aware of that fact and be prepared to deal with that attention.

Sure, it would be nice if no one interacted with us in any way except ways that we personally prefer, but that's not the way it is, and expecting other people to instinctively know how we want them to interact with us is unlikely to result in success.

I do agree that anyone should be able to wear whatever they like and not have to deal with forced hit-on situations, but I do not think a compliment necessarily constitutes a come-on, nor do I think a respectful come-on is a problem. If they try and you say no and they keep trying, that is a violation. Noticing - and even commenting - that you look good to them in that outfit is not.

[joreth]

That misses the point. As I've already addressed, of course we should be aware of how our actions affect other people. If you go back to what started the discussion, it was about sexism in a specific venue where the men use their positions of authority to harass young women. The original poster is refusing to allow the men to take any sort of responsibility for their behaviour on the basis of his hypothesis that the women dress attractively so therefore we should accept their ogling and the only way to avoid poor behaviour is to wear sweats. This doesn't address the poor behaviour on the part of these men in the first place.

And since the point of his post was to specifically request that women chime in with what kinds of compliments we prefer, I was not just mouthing off. He asked what kind of compliments we prefer, several of us told him what kind and why, and he responded with "well, too bad, I'm going to compliment you my way, so just deal with it".

"If they try and you say no and they keep trying, that is a violation".

This is me, saying "no" and him continuing to try. This is a violation.

[rain-herself.livejournal.com]

I was referring to your attitudes in general, not so much to him personally.

[joreth]

My attitude in general is usually on the other side of this debate. He asked our opinion, I didn't offer it just for the hell of it. He didn't understand what was so wrong and creepy with 50 year old men overing around the underage girls in corsets - after all, if a woman wears a corset, she must want 50 year old men to leer at her, since that's what 50-year old men do.

[rain-herself.livejournal.com]

You frequently complain about people complimenting your appearance, and in fact did so in this post. I certainly agree that he is wrong on this point, I just also feel that your attitude toward compliments, physical appearance, and interacting with the world is also relevant to the discussion of the issue as a whole. And while he is coming from a pretty offensive place, the issue of clothing being relevant to the reactions of others is a valid point to make. My disagreeing with you doesn't mean I agree with him, I disagree with him also. :)

[joreth]

I never said it was irrelevant, in fact I said there was a spectrum that specifically allowed for some people who do dress to get attention and people who do dress to hide and a wide area in the middle.

My point was that all women do not wear clothing for the purpose of getting attention and that all people (not just women) should be allowed to dress in "appropriate" and comfortable fashions without being made into a sex object. And, since he asked specifically what kind of compliments we prefer, several of us told him and he immediately countered with insults to our sanity and a complete disrespect for our values and life experiences. In this case, the fact that I, personally, have a chip on my shoulder about compliments is not the point. I never once said that a compliment was always bad - I said he should be respectful of women who do *not* like compliments and that women don't "deserve what they get".

[joreth]

Also, his point was that women dress a certain way "in order to" get men's attention so we have no right to then get upset when we get that attention.

[aclaro.livejournal.com]

It doesn't seem to me like any of this has to do with what one wears, but about being courteous and respectful in all situations. There is a distinction between a compliment and an aggressive come on, an appreciative stare and a catcall. The latter is not about appreciation, but about power. There is a kind of aggressive male attention which makes all women feel uncomfortable. A man who does this, does so not to get results, but to feel powerful. If his intention was to make you feel good, obviously he would try to find out the best way to do that. A man who insists that a woman deserves certain treatment because of what she is wearing, is a man who wants his power trip to be excused.

[femetal.livejournal.com]

Yes, this! This exactly!

[joreth]

That is what I was trying to get across and, apparently, not succeeding. The original post was about sexism in a particular subculture, as exhibited by the older men complimenting the young female's bodies under the guise of the character of the event and making women feel uncomfortable.

So when this poster asked for women to tell him what kind of compliments they prefer, a few did, and he responded with "well, you have psychological issues and I'm going to continue to compliment women's appearances because I like to be complimented on my appearance".

He's completely missing the point that the whole issue started because some women felt there was a legitimate problem, not that some militant feminazi got up on her soapbox to destroy all the men.

brick walls

[terriaminute.livejournal.com]

My sympathies. Hey, if you want even more inane "compliments", you should try being an acceptable looking albino woman. You would not believe what this can generate...

Re: brick walls

[corpsefairy.livejournal.com]

Wow, you must get all sorts of clueless comments. I can't even imagine.

Want to share a top (or bottom) ten list?

Re: brick walls

[terriaminute.livejournal.com]

Oh, no. I try not to keep them in my head. They cause dain bramage, you know. I just hope that any inane things I've uttered over the years are also forgotten!

[leora.livejournal.com]

I do not consider which compliments are acceptable to be based on how I am dressed, except in so far as one might compliment my clothing and it should be based on reality (so saying my shirt is a lovely shade of blue when it is actually orange would be a bit weird, that sort of thing).

I find the idea that women should dress to discourage men from treating them rudely if they do not want to be harassed to be disgusting and deplorable. This is the justification for putting women in burkhas. The idea being that men are animals who cannot possibly act properly if a woman were to be visible to them and women who make themselves visible are asking for it.

I deplore any reasoning along this slippery slope.

You can act politely to a scantily dressed woman or to a naked one.

And really, I don't generally mind people looking, but keep a civil tongue and keep your hands to yourself unless you have consent.

I don't need to dress based on your inability to be a decent human being. If you aren't fit to be out in public, then you stay out of public or get yourself a keeper.

fddf

[(Anonymous)]

I really like your post. Will continue reading your blog. :)