Advice From A Dancer

[joreth]

In addition to MySpace and OKC and LJ, not to mention my actual website, I also have a profile on a website designed to match up dancing partners. It's not a very good service, because you can only contact people if one of you is a paid member, and not many of us like to pay for such services. So I get the occasional email in my inbox that I can't read because neither of us is a paid member, and I find the occasional profile I am interested in who I can't contact because neither of us are paid members.

I did get one email I could read and respond to, though, and I thought it was interesting enough to warrant an LJ post. It's a guy asking for advice on how to deal with his wife that believes that DANCING is CHEATING.

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Please forgive me but I am not looking for a dance partner in the email. Any time you could spare would be deeply appreciated. I am seeking your advice on an issue that is current vexing me. I contacted you because you are in a similar situation. You are married or have a live in partner, you love to dance and it seems that your SO (Significant Other) does not dance for some reason.

So here's the issue... I love to dance, ballroom, that is, no slow dancing, just the standard ten dance, dances. Most everyone at the studio I frequent knows I'm married. I dance, mostly with married women, my age, 50 or so, that have SO's that don't dance.. To me, dancing is the best anti-depressant. Like Fred says, "I'm in heaven." Dancing is something I look forward to, it is the highlight of the week and while I'm dancing everything in the world is perfectly OK and I am simply ecstatic. I feel that if you stop dancing you are dying. My wife says dancing cheating on her and disrespectful to our marriage. She believes that dancing is a prelude to sex and one thing leads to another.

I've begged her to dance with me. I've asked her to come to the studio and just watch if she likes. I am an advanced dancer and a pretty good teacher. Dancing with my novice wife would be one of the best things that could happen in our relationship. However, she refuses saying, she's "awkward"; (not really) "Not interested"; etc, etc. Yet she loves watching Dancing with the Stars. I've been very gentle about asking her to dance with me. I've asked her what I could do to get us started. I never pressure her but I do mention it from time to time..

I go out dancing about once a month and every time there is a scene and I pay for it for days afterward. I am understanding and compassionate. I sense her insecurity but I feel that dancing is so important to me that I can not indulge her fears. I am an attractive guy and could pick up a woman anywhere, at the supermarket, bookstore, whatever; I simply love to dance, something she knew long before we got married. I can't believe, after all these years, that she still does want to try it, at least, once. I've offered her private lessons, learning at home, in private, just the two of us,

So, am I cheating on her!!!? Am I a terrible husband going out a couple of times a month on my own and hold other women in my arms? Should I give up this life long passion and the one thing that will turn my day around? Do you have a similar problem with your SO? Are they jealous or are they happy for you that you have this passion for dancing?

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My Response:
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I do not have a husband or live-in partner.  I am, however, polyamorous.  To answer your question, "cheating" is a betrayal or broken agreement.  If you ever made a promise not to dance, that would be "cheating".  If you never made that agreement either explicitly or IMPLICITLY, that is not cheating, by definition.

The problem is, however, that whether or not you are "cheating" is irrelevant.  Your wife has some deep-seated insecurities and debating the semantics of the word will not help.

The first thing you have to do is decide how important dancing is to you.  If you are forced into a choice, are you willing to give up your wife or your dancing.  Personally, if it were my choice to make, I would be more willing to give up the wife, but it would NOT be because I love dancing more.  The reason would be because someone who would make me choose between two things I love dearly, that give meaning to my life, someone like that has 1) very deep issues that I do not believe I can fix and 2) a fundamentally different worldview from me and I doubt the ability to ever see eye-to-eye.

Once you have decided what your answer will be if you are backed into that corner, then you can choose your strategy for trying to have both.  If you are willing to give up dancing, then there is not much you can do other than continue to reassure your wife while honoring your now-explicit agreement to give up dancing while she is uncomfortable.  If you do make that decision, though, be very very clear what the limits are and get it on paper.  Are you giving it up temporarily?  If so, how long?  What constitutes "dancing"?  Is it acceptable to dance with the boss' wife at the company xmas party or your sister at your cousin's wedding or is all dancing outlawed?  Spell it out and be clear what you are giving up.  Then honor that.

If you are willing to give up your wife, you can arrange your discussion to include that dancing *will* be a part of your life and that you *hope* your wife will also be a part of your life, but she has to accept that dancing comes with you as a package deal.  You can indicate that you are willing to do whatever it takes to reassure her EXCEPT giving up the dancing.  You can then work with her to reach compromises that will reassure her.  If she is not willing to dance with you, watch you dance, or come anywhere near a dancing establishment, encourage her to spend quality time with her friends or family doing something she enjoys during the same time you are out dancing (always making sure she understands that she can join you at any time and you are not keeping her out).  Then engage her in conversation afterwards about what she did in a manner that indicates you are interested in her enjoyment of the occasion, not that you are "checking up" on her while she's out on the town without you.

I am polyamorous.  That means that I believe in the ETHICAL and RESPONSIBLE practice of non-monogamy.  I choose to only have relationships with people who do not view me as their property, they do not believe I *owe* them my time (but rather believe my time is my gift to them, given free of obligation because I want to), and they do not believe that the other people and hobbies in my life are competition. 

Something that comes along with being polyamorous is a sense of security in myself and a view of my partnerships that includes respect and individuality.  Your wife sounds incredibly insecure and she is making some assumptions about your relationship.  She assumes that she has the right to dictate your behaviour.  She assumes that certain actions that you do with other people (dancing, sex, going to the movies, whatever) affect her relationship with you and she assumes that her specialness comes from outside.  When you believe that you are special because of something you do, that specialness can be taken away by someone else who can also do that same thing.  When you understand that you are special because of who you are, it doesn't matter who else can do that with you.  She also assumes that all dancing is sexual. 

I might recommend you show her some YouTube videos of Benji Schwimmer & Heidi Groskreutz dancing.  They are cousins and mormons, a rather conservative christian religion.  While it's true that dancing involves physical contact with another person, the idea that the contact is sexual is not a universal idea.  The mormon religion has a precedence of encouraging their youth to develop dancing skills, even those skills used in swing, salsa, rhumba, and others that are very contact-oriented.  Benji and Heidi's entire family is involved in dancing because they understand that dancing is *not* a sexual act if the participants do not intend for it to be a sexual act.  Certainly it can be, that's what popular night clubs are there for ... to hook up with people.  But dancing, as you know, means a lot of different things.  Dancing is the oldest form of worship, for example, an expression of communicating with the gods (or God, depending upon the religion).  It is only sexual under certain circumstances.  Clearly, in Benji and Heidi's case, it is most certainly not sexual, superficial resemblances to the contrary.  If you are a religious man, maybe you can explain your passion for dancing in those kinds of terms ... it feels as though you are being exactly what God intended, reveling in His creation of being Human, and you think it would be the epitome of your comittment and honor to your wife if she could attempt to share that with you.  If you're not religious, this is probably not the best approach.

Many a romance began after a candelight dinner.  Women have been told for years that the way to a man's heart is through his stomach.  Is she concerned every time you eat in a restaurant, you will fall in love with the chef?  Or the waitress who brought the food?  There are hundreds of books dedicated to winning a romantic partner with cooking the "right" meal.  Right now she is placing the entire specialness of her relationship with you (and on herself personally) on this act of dancing ... an act that you are willing to share with her.  The act itself isn't important, it's that she decided somewhere that this act would represent all her insecurities and her personal identity as the special person in your life.  I suspect that if you do cut dancing out of your life, this would not address the underlying insecurity and she will react this same way when she sees you talking with another woman, having lunch with female co-workers, chatting with the sales girl, etc.  Placing limits on your dancing does not address the actual insecurity and it *will* resurface and manifest in some other manner even if you do give in and give up dancing.

Many of the skills we learn by being polyamorous are the kinds of skills that all relationships can benefit from.  Because it's not about who is having sex with whom, it's about being a secure person and being in relationships that are emotionally fulfilling.

I suggest you read some of the websites that I will include at the bottom of this email.  They are intended to be for relationships that include open sexual relationships, but the concepts are not limited to sexual openness.  Read the websites NOT with the idea of having sex with other women, but with the idea of strengthening your own marriage so that dancing can be included in your life.  You may contact me by regular email if you wish to continue correspondence.

And just in case your wife learns of our correspondence and feels threatened or afraid that this is a sign that you are thinking of cheating, I recommend that, after you read the information, you do NOT try to hide this and do convince her that neither you nor I are corresponding for the purpose of a relationship or even a dance partnership.  I am NOT trying to convert you to polyamory.  I am suggesting only that you take some of the relationship skills into your own marriage to strengthen it and make it more enjoyable for you both, since I'm sure this is equally as stressful for her as it is for you.  Anytime the website refers to "your other partner" or "your husband's other girlfriend" or anything similiar, or even "polyamory", substitute "other partner" for "dancing hobby".  For example in the line from the first essay, "One way to break your lover's heart is to force your lover to withdraw from a person he or she loves" - re-write in your head it to say "One way for my wife to break my heart is to force me to withdraw from a hobby I love". 

http://www.xeromag.com/fvpolymistakes.html - Common Poly Mistakes
http://www.xeromag.com/fvpolypiano.html - How To Be A Secure Person
http://tacit.livejournal.com/148633.html - Some Thoughts On Being Special
http://tacit.livejournal.com/171501.html - Some Thoughts On Specialness

Hope this helps.

Sincerely,
Joreth

Comments

[redheadlass.livejournal.com]

If he responds, will you post it? I'm interested in seeing what he will say. :)

[joreth]

Sure, I'll keep telling the story as it unfolds. Since he's not one of my online skeezballs, I will keep him anonymous, however, but I'm sure no one here will mind that.

[james-the-evil1.livejournal.com]

Nope, not at all, but I AM interested in hearing his response.
I deal with this ALL the time on the model/photog sites where a partner comes along & demands someone give up a passion because the partner can't handle it.
You'd be amazed at how often I get lambasted for suggesting the partner should be dumped when it's a brand new relationship that hasn't even progressed to the point of cohabiting & they're already showing this sort of insecure & controlling behavior.
Ugh.

[mosthings1z.livejournal.com]

That was a very nice and informative response.

[phantom-man.livejournal.com]

My Grandfather was born and raised in the north hill country of Central Texas. He worked on the ranches, in the factories, and in the oil fields with many Mexicans. He picked up their language and became friends with them. On many occasions they would invited him to their parties. His wife, my Grandmother, was the product of the deep south, Corinth, Mississippi. She forbade him to go to the parties. He repeatedly asked her to let him go, but she never relented. He never defied her.

I've only heard this story recently from my Mother. She said that she thinks "Daddy finally forgave Mother" for being so obstinate. I have my doubts.

The consequence of this kind of control is a lingering anger that can poison the relationship.

Your advise to the "Dancer" was excellent. I would add that the issue is important enough to the long term health of the relationship that, if necessary, they should seek professional help.

[leora.livejournal.com]

I would strongly encourage couple's counselling for them. The wife has obvious insecurities. For all we know, they may even have some justifiable roots; we have no idea how he treats his wife in general. But regardless of the source of the problem(s), the relationship has a serious problem in it that needs addressing, and an objective and trained outsider may be very helpful. As you say, this isn't just about dancing, and there will be other issues involved.

I hope it works out well for both of them.

I find it sad when people feel a need to give up something they love for a relationship. Sometimes it can be okay and make sense, when time is limited and something has to go. But sometimes it's just bad. I remember reading somewhat recently about bait and switch where a partner pretends to be interested in something, but then as soon as they're married wants the activity to stop. This came up in a sexual context, but the annecdote I found saddest was someone who said that as soon as his stepmother married his father, the fishing and camping stopped. There's just something very, very sad about that.

But then, there's something very sad about pretending to be something you aren't with the goal of then tricking someone into accepting who you really are. I understand that people change, and if your interests actually change, that's fine, but deliberately tricking someone like that seems a recipe for sadness all around. I get wanting to present yourself well and not showing all your worst traits, but that's also different from lying about your interests.

Lying is a bad foundation for a relationship. There, that's simple and soundbitey.

[joreth]

zen_shooter likes to say "only date people you like". I think that's very good advice. I think it's fine to not share an interest with your SO, but if his interest is so upsetting and disturbing to you and threatening to the relationship, probably he's not a good match for you since he enjoys doing that.

I used to get the bait and switch in the poly context ... someone would pretend to be OK with it until they could convince me that they were The One and talk me into giving up this silly phase.

Lots of people have a problem with Dr. Laura (and rightfully so), but she did give one bit of good advice:

A man called in asking what to do about his wife. She liked to party and travel and do all kinds of things. They've been married several years (more than 5, possibly more than 10, I don't remember) and he wanted to settle down and start having the Ozzy & Harriet life.

Dr. Laura asked if she was like that when they met. He said yes. She asked why he married her/liked her in the first place. He said because she was exciting and spontaneous.

Dr. Laura said "well, you got exactly what you wanted. You wanted a Ferrari and you got one. Now you're upset because your sportscar isn't acting like a station wagon. Tough shit. Appreciate her for who she is, don't be upset for who she isn't. Especially since you knew who she was before you proposed".

I don't know why but people keep expecting marriage to make their partner change into someone they aren't. Having the big party isn't going to change them into a different person. If you want someone different, fucking go marry someone different!

Sorry, it's a hot-button for me.

[leora.livejournal.com]

Oh, I agree. I was actually a bit off-topic, I was talking about outright fraud. I think in the example I cited, she wasn't saying he couldn't do those things, but she pretended to enjoy them, right until they were married, and then said she didn't want to do them anymore. And that really, really bugs me.

I view it as similar, because presumably his wife didn't tell him before they married that she wasn't okay with his dancing. She probably pretended to be okay with it. It's a little different as she didn't pretend to actively enjoy it, but still...

where did the view of no dancing in marriage come from? She probably knew she felt that way before marrying, but she didn't mention it. It's this whole not telling your partner what you intend to change when you marry that bothers me. Actually, also the intending to change things because you are married. I'm fine if you discuss it, and many people change the are we trying to have children together thing when they get married, and if they both want to change that, that's fine. But assuming changes that you don't discuss is a Bad Idea [TM].

[joreth]

Yeah, I agree they're similar, which is why I mention it. Sure, people change, and with that change may need to come a disolution of the relationship if the change is incompatible with the existing partner. That should be OK. But trying to force a change onto someone, whether you knew it ahead of time or not, in order to keep the relationship is not the answer. Just date people you like.