Now, I'm tired, so I will probably have to revisit this and rewrite it sometime later, but if I don't get it out now, it'll get filed away in the back of my brain and overlooked among the hundreds of topics I keep saying I'll write about but never do.
I found this in another blog:
She was very clear about her limits. In our negotiations ahead of time, she was very clear about what was and wasn't okay. And because she was so upfront about what was off-limits, that made me feel more confident and safe about doing the things she'd said were okay. That was important -- probably more important than anything else.
As a primarily-straight female, I don't have the benefit of first-hand knowledge of how women conduct their romantic negotiations. But as a female who has almost exclusively male friends, I get to *hear* about how the men perceive these negotiations to go.
And as far as I can tell, they don't go at all.
Women don't negotiate. Women don't set down any limits or rules. The men get to sort of fumble along until they do something the women don't like, then they either get blasted for their inappropriateness or the women sit and quietly fume about it (totally unbeknownst to the men), building resentment into their relationships for as long as they last because the men have never developed the ability to read the women's minds and decide for themselves that their attentions are unwanted.
The above quote was written by a woman on her account of hiring a female professional sexual submissive.
As a pro, and in general dealing with the world of fetish sex, clear negotiations and limits are mandatory. But in the "real world", or the majority of our nation's monogamists, who are taught a load of assumptions and are also taught that everyone has the same assumptions and it is detrimental to the relationship to question those assumptions, clear negotiations and limits are feared and avoided.
(Before I go any further, I shouldn't have to say this but I will. I am speaking in generalities based on my own observations. It should not need to be said that I am not speaking for every single woman alive, nor even any single woman in America. I have not met or observed every single woman and therefore cannot speak for them even if I wanted to. If anything I am saying does not apply to you or someone you know, then assume I am not speaking about *you* and that I have already allowed for your existence with this qualifying statement)
Men are often plagued with a variety of lables that equate to "monster". But I've found that a great many of these accusations are a direct result of something the female accuser has done and not because the guy is actually a bad guy.
One of the things I've encountered, so many times that it's embarassing, is women who want their male partner to behave in a certain way, usually a very specific action, never tell him directly, then blame him for when he does not. The rationale is that if he loved her, he would somehow magically know that he should do or not do this specific action.
Usually, this is not a case of a guy completely ignoring his wife, sneaking out the door trying to avoid her every day for a decade, etc. Because pretty much anyone in our culture can tell you that he *should* be able to guess that this behaviour would upset her. No, I'm talking about things like the guy not buying the exact engagement ring when she never told or even hinted that she hates yellow gold. I'm talking about a guy who isn't that good at oral sex but the girl fakes her orgasms every time he goes down on her and she is increasingly more upset that he keeps wanting to do it and she begins to run out of excuses to avoid it. I'm talking about the guy who doesn't take out the trash because his wife takes it out for him without any comment or request, and then during the divorce proceedings, she bursts out with this little factoid and he just sits there blinking at her thinking "if that's all she wanted, why didn't she say so? I would have done it". This is about men who would like to please their partners but who seem to bungle it because they just don't know the proper thing to do.
I often have conversations with men where I try to spell out my limits and have a negotiation conversation. Some men claim relief at my willingness to discuss these things. Most of my male friends and co-worker-acquaintences claim that this is one of the reasons why they became my friend in the first place - my brutal honesty and openness and the fact that no topic is off-limits. They claim that they've learned more about women in one conversation with me than in their entire dating life.
But, strangely enough, even some men are disomforted by this kind of openness. I think it threatens their sense of self-esteem to be told by a lover that the lover doesn't like a particular action. I try to be considerate of people's feelings, but really, from where I stand, as long as you're not cruel about it, I'd rather know when I'm doing something you don't like so that I can stop doing it. Or at least negotiate about it.
Very occasionally, I have met some men who are unable to discuss limits. There is some vagueness like "well, let's just see what happens" and "no, really, I like everything you do". Hell, I've used that line myself sometimes. Even though I have met some men who give me the vague not-really-answers, I think it is more common in women and I think our society encourages this vagueness and discourages honest and explicit discussion and negotiation. That word, negotiation, is treated like a bad word, devoid of emotion and romanticism. But, I have to chime in with the author of the quote here. When I do not know the limits, I tend to be much more timid in my romantic expression, both sexual and non-sexual. When I do know the limits, I feel much more secure about what I can and can't do, and I feel as though I am a better lover and a better partner when I know the limits. If the limits are ever something I'm not comfortable with, I'd much rather learn that sooner than later. Finding out a year into a relationship that my partner actually doesn't like something, or that he really really wants me to do something that's way outside my comfort zone can even feel like a betrayal, depending upon the particularities of the information. It can also make me feel as though I don't really know someone and that my feelings are for a person that doesn't really exist.
And trust me, that is much worse for my feelings and my self-esteem than finding out on a 6th date that I can stand to improve my handjob technique. That, at least, is fixable, preferably before I've developed a habit or pattern that is harder to change.
I think this is one of the reasons why I'm so bothered by other women not telling the online assholes that they're online assholes. I think it's a related symptom. I've seen it in other posts where women say they just ignore the guys because they assume they'll "get the hint". Judging by my guy friends, they are most certainly not "getting the hint" because they have absolutely no idea why these women are ignoring their emails. I tell these guys that they're being assholes because I hope to fix the problem. I believe that if there is any chance that someone can change their approach, the technique of not telling them definately removes the possibility of change. The possibility may be small, but non-disclosure is a definate 0% chance. How else would they know to change if I don't tell them? If no one tells them? For an online stranger, it may not seem worth the effort to tell someone you don't like and plan to never speak to again that you don't like them. But it might prevent some other woman from going through the same problem, and an entire society of women speaking out against this behaviour may affect a cultural change and therefore prevent our own subjection of this behaviour.
What if every woman who was ever raped never spoke up because they figured they'd never see him again so it's not worth the effort of the court trial? Yes, this is an extreme example and I don't mean to trivialize rape by comparing it to a couple of annoying emails. But there was a time that rape was excused, especially when the rapist was the woman's husband. It took many years to change our culture to accept that unwanted sexual attention is ALWAYS a bad thing, and it took many women speaking up to say this was inexcusable before our society changed its collective mind. Yes, annoying emails are nowhere near the severity of a rape. But annoying emails as the "normal internet experience" will not stop if we women don't make it clear that this is a limit. And I can't really blame a guy for "rape" if I do absolutely nothing to indicate his sexual attention is unwanted. Just like I can't blame the guy for not fucking me if I never tell him I'm horny. Just like I can't blame a guy for buying the wrong ring if I never tell him how much I hate yellow gold. Different levels of severity, certainly, but symptomatic of the same problem. And I'll probably get all kinds of hatemail because I dared to include "rape" in the same journal post as annoying emails and buying the wrong engagement ring. I'm sorry, it's not rape if you don't say "no" and these poor guys have to go through life never knowing if their come-on approach will ever land them in jail because women give mixed signals at best, and no signals at worst.
When he asks you if he can kiss you, a yes or no is much more preferable to a "well, I haven't moved away yet, have I?" or a shrug and a lowering of the eyes. When he doesn't ask you but leans in for that kiss, telling him no is better then grudgingly accepting the kiss and then avoiding his calls the next day. When he doesn't kiss you at all, asking him to kiss you and potentially risking the embarassment of a rejection has a higher chance of getting you that kiss than not indicating that you want one does.
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tacitphrases it more like "if you don't ask for what you want, you can't reasonably be expected to get what you want". I ask (ok, I yell, scream, and insult) for men online to read my profile and treat me in a particular manner. I may or may not be making many people change their approach, but I know for certain that not making my limits clear will definately not achieve a change in their approach. I ask for my partners to behave in a particular manner - things like don't buy me gifts unless I've explicitly stated I want such and such, allow me to help with house repairs, listen to me when I talk, fuck me harder, don't date women who want you to break up with me so they can have you all to themselves, anal sex is a hard limit, don't treat me like a fragile girl who can't take care of herself or who will break a nail if she opens her own door, yes I really do like giving head, no I really don't like it when you buy me flowers. Generally speaking, I usually get these things.
And that's because I ask for what I want and I try to be clear on my limits.
I found this in another blog:
She was very clear about her limits. In our negotiations ahead of time, she was very clear about what was and wasn't okay. And because she was so upfront about what was off-limits, that made me feel more confident and safe about doing the things she'd said were okay. That was important -- probably more important than anything else.
As a primarily-straight female, I don't have the benefit of first-hand knowledge of how women conduct their romantic negotiations. But as a female who has almost exclusively male friends, I get to *hear* about how the men perceive these negotiations to go.
And as far as I can tell, they don't go at all.
Women don't negotiate. Women don't set down any limits or rules. The men get to sort of fumble along until they do something the women don't like, then they either get blasted for their inappropriateness or the women sit and quietly fume about it (totally unbeknownst to the men), building resentment into their relationships for as long as they last because the men have never developed the ability to read the women's minds and decide for themselves that their attentions are unwanted.
The above quote was written by a woman on her account of hiring a female professional sexual submissive.
As a pro, and in general dealing with the world of fetish sex, clear negotiations and limits are mandatory. But in the "real world", or the majority of our nation's monogamists, who are taught a load of assumptions and are also taught that everyone has the same assumptions and it is detrimental to the relationship to question those assumptions, clear negotiations and limits are feared and avoided.
(Before I go any further, I shouldn't have to say this but I will. I am speaking in generalities based on my own observations. It should not need to be said that I am not speaking for every single woman alive, nor even any single woman in America. I have not met or observed every single woman and therefore cannot speak for them even if I wanted to. If anything I am saying does not apply to you or someone you know, then assume I am not speaking about *you* and that I have already allowed for your existence with this qualifying statement)
Men are often plagued with a variety of lables that equate to "monster". But I've found that a great many of these accusations are a direct result of something the female accuser has done and not because the guy is actually a bad guy.
One of the things I've encountered, so many times that it's embarassing, is women who want their male partner to behave in a certain way, usually a very specific action, never tell him directly, then blame him for when he does not. The rationale is that if he loved her, he would somehow magically know that he should do or not do this specific action.
Usually, this is not a case of a guy completely ignoring his wife, sneaking out the door trying to avoid her every day for a decade, etc. Because pretty much anyone in our culture can tell you that he *should* be able to guess that this behaviour would upset her. No, I'm talking about things like the guy not buying the exact engagement ring when she never told or even hinted that she hates yellow gold. I'm talking about a guy who isn't that good at oral sex but the girl fakes her orgasms every time he goes down on her and she is increasingly more upset that he keeps wanting to do it and she begins to run out of excuses to avoid it. I'm talking about the guy who doesn't take out the trash because his wife takes it out for him without any comment or request, and then during the divorce proceedings, she bursts out with this little factoid and he just sits there blinking at her thinking "if that's all she wanted, why didn't she say so? I would have done it". This is about men who would like to please their partners but who seem to bungle it because they just don't know the proper thing to do.
I often have conversations with men where I try to spell out my limits and have a negotiation conversation. Some men claim relief at my willingness to discuss these things. Most of my male friends and co-worker-acquaintences claim that this is one of the reasons why they became my friend in the first place - my brutal honesty and openness and the fact that no topic is off-limits. They claim that they've learned more about women in one conversation with me than in their entire dating life.
But, strangely enough, even some men are disomforted by this kind of openness. I think it threatens their sense of self-esteem to be told by a lover that the lover doesn't like a particular action. I try to be considerate of people's feelings, but really, from where I stand, as long as you're not cruel about it, I'd rather know when I'm doing something you don't like so that I can stop doing it. Or at least negotiate about it.
Very occasionally, I have met some men who are unable to discuss limits. There is some vagueness like "well, let's just see what happens" and "no, really, I like everything you do". Hell, I've used that line myself sometimes. Even though I have met some men who give me the vague not-really-answers, I think it is more common in women and I think our society encourages this vagueness and discourages honest and explicit discussion and negotiation. That word, negotiation, is treated like a bad word, devoid of emotion and romanticism. But, I have to chime in with the author of the quote here. When I do not know the limits, I tend to be much more timid in my romantic expression, both sexual and non-sexual. When I do know the limits, I feel much more secure about what I can and can't do, and I feel as though I am a better lover and a better partner when I know the limits. If the limits are ever something I'm not comfortable with, I'd much rather learn that sooner than later. Finding out a year into a relationship that my partner actually doesn't like something, or that he really really wants me to do something that's way outside my comfort zone can even feel like a betrayal, depending upon the particularities of the information. It can also make me feel as though I don't really know someone and that my feelings are for a person that doesn't really exist.
And trust me, that is much worse for my feelings and my self-esteem than finding out on a 6th date that I can stand to improve my handjob technique. That, at least, is fixable, preferably before I've developed a habit or pattern that is harder to change.
I think this is one of the reasons why I'm so bothered by other women not telling the online assholes that they're online assholes. I think it's a related symptom. I've seen it in other posts where women say they just ignore the guys because they assume they'll "get the hint". Judging by my guy friends, they are most certainly not "getting the hint" because they have absolutely no idea why these women are ignoring their emails. I tell these guys that they're being assholes because I hope to fix the problem. I believe that if there is any chance that someone can change their approach, the technique of not telling them definately removes the possibility of change. The possibility may be small, but non-disclosure is a definate 0% chance. How else would they know to change if I don't tell them? If no one tells them? For an online stranger, it may not seem worth the effort to tell someone you don't like and plan to never speak to again that you don't like them. But it might prevent some other woman from going through the same problem, and an entire society of women speaking out against this behaviour may affect a cultural change and therefore prevent our own subjection of this behaviour.
What if every woman who was ever raped never spoke up because they figured they'd never see him again so it's not worth the effort of the court trial? Yes, this is an extreme example and I don't mean to trivialize rape by comparing it to a couple of annoying emails. But there was a time that rape was excused, especially when the rapist was the woman's husband. It took many years to change our culture to accept that unwanted sexual attention is ALWAYS a bad thing, and it took many women speaking up to say this was inexcusable before our society changed its collective mind. Yes, annoying emails are nowhere near the severity of a rape. But annoying emails as the "normal internet experience" will not stop if we women don't make it clear that this is a limit. And I can't really blame a guy for "rape" if I do absolutely nothing to indicate his sexual attention is unwanted. Just like I can't blame the guy for not fucking me if I never tell him I'm horny. Just like I can't blame a guy for buying the wrong ring if I never tell him how much I hate yellow gold. Different levels of severity, certainly, but symptomatic of the same problem. And I'll probably get all kinds of hatemail because I dared to include "rape" in the same journal post as annoying emails and buying the wrong engagement ring. I'm sorry, it's not rape if you don't say "no" and these poor guys have to go through life never knowing if their come-on approach will ever land them in jail because women give mixed signals at best, and no signals at worst.
When he asks you if he can kiss you, a yes or no is much more preferable to a "well, I haven't moved away yet, have I?" or a shrug and a lowering of the eyes. When he doesn't ask you but leans in for that kiss, telling him no is better then grudgingly accepting the kiss and then avoiding his calls the next day. When he doesn't kiss you at all, asking him to kiss you and potentially risking the embarassment of a rejection has a higher chance of getting you that kiss than not indicating that you want one does.
tacitphrases it more like "if you don't ask for what you want, you can't reasonably be expected to get what you want". I ask (ok, I yell, scream, and insult) for men online to read my profile and treat me in a particular manner. I may or may not be making many people change their approach, but I know for certain that not making my limits clear will definately not achieve a change in their approach. I ask for my partners to behave in a particular manner - things like don't buy me gifts unless I've explicitly stated I want such and such, allow me to help with house repairs, listen to me when I talk, fuck me harder, don't date women who want you to break up with me so they can have you all to themselves, anal sex is a hard limit, don't treat me like a fragile girl who can't take care of herself or who will break a nail if she opens her own door, yes I really do like giving head, no I really don't like it when you buy me flowers. Generally speaking, I usually get these things. And that's because I ask for what I want and I try to be clear on my limits.
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no subject
Date: 12/22/07 02:00 am (UTC)From:However, most children aren't like me. Although some things develop but are also innate. Children do not usually get particularly embarassed, but then embarrassment starts happening easily, and I don't think that is cultural. What circumstances cause it is cultural, but it happening is not. So, becoming more cautious about sharing information about yourself and fearing rejection (such as might happen by stating what you want) may not be entirely cultural.
Also, I think it's scary for the men sometimes if a woman says she doesn't like something because so few women do. They can't just assume that this woman doesn't like it, they're left wondering, did all my past lovers also have a problem with it? Have I been doing this wrong all along? That's scary and painful.
And I don't think enough people think: well, desires vary so much from person to person, my technique may be great ... for some people, but this person likes a different technique.
Your handjob technique may not be lacking in any absolute sense; it's just not what this particular guy wants. And so forth. But if this is the first bit of honest feedback you know to have, and it tells you you're doing it wrong, then you can question everything.