Is It Asshole On The Internet Day?

[joreth]

 Oh, wait, that's every day.

I know this isn't every guy, and I know it's not just guys, and I know this happens no matter which privileged/unprivileged group we talk about not just the genders.  But goddamn it if I don't get sick of this!

PZ Myers of pharyngula has tried on several occasions to address "the woman problem".  That's where women are underrepresented at skeptic events, so he asks the women in his blog what might get us to attend more events if we're not already attending.  Every time, he asks the men to butt out.  Every time, he tells the men that if they want to include a group of people, they should listen to what that group of people actually has to say and that responses defending whatever it is that group of people doesn't like is exactly why that group of people don't like it in the first place.  And every time, some men just can't help themselves - they jump in to presume to speak for women, and to tell the women to lighten up or to get over something or to defend whatever it is that the women in question don't like.

In other words, if you actively WANT women to attend an event, then you should ask the women what it'll take to get them to attend.  You should NOT then ask non-women to come up with ideas to attract women and you should NOT respond to "I don't want to attend an event where guys are hitting on me all the time" with "oh, lighten up, it's a compliment!".

So, when a woman who works in a women's abuse shelter posts a horrific story about an 11-year old girl who got raped ON MORE THAN ONE OCCASION, and for whom 18 FUCKING MEN have so far been arrested for complicity in the rape, a 6'5", 220 lb, white, tattooed, male, martial artist who has never had to live in fear of his life simply for having a certain set of genitals has no fucking business swaggering into the thread to tell us women that the solution to the rape problem is to just learn martial arts, and to insert that if the girl hadn't been in that place at that time, then she wouldn't have been raped.

He then had the audacity to suggest that he was not blaming the victim, just pointing out a fact, and proclaim that he is for female empowerment because he has daughters himself and plans to teach them martial arts when they get older.

Seriously, think I'm exaggerating or taking it out of context?

---

DLP: One fact that people are quick to dismiss is that if the girl hadn't been there, this incident wouldn't have happened to her. THAT DOESN'T ACTUALLY EXCUSE THE INCIDENT, but it *is* a fact. You cannot be raped by remote control... you have to be physically present for it to happen. Regardless, it's not really a deciding factor in this case, as much as some people want it to be. It could have been any girl, really... if not this one, then maybe it would have been another one, or maybe not. Would this same girl have been raped if she had been somewhere else instead? No one knows. It's a collection of circumstances placed together that created the event in question, none of which excuse the event, they merely explain it. Anyone who places blame directly on the girl is a complete idiot.

[I would have actually let this go, in spite of the fact that he brings up the whole "wouldn't have happened if" point, because he seemed to go out of his way to condemn the rape & on victim-blamers.  At this point, it was stupid, but forgivable.  It's his response to someone who took exception to his comment that made me jump in the fray. The underlined parts are what made me respond:]

MS: I'm sorta not getting this "lied about her age" connection. So, if she were over 18 she would have wanted 18 males to rape her repeatedly for hours? WTF does age have to do with it? At a certain age it becomes ok?

DLP, I get what you are ...trying to say, here, sorta. But then, to take this to the place it could go...best all us women (and little girls) stay barefoot in the kitchen where we belong. (I'm sure you aren't saying that, right?) I'm thinking, if those 18 guys were not THERE the rape for sure wouldn't have happened, too.

I'm having a baby girl in about 2 weeks...or whenever she feels like coming out, I guess. And I'm hoping that in her lifetime, she can actually BE ANYWHERE and not have that be a factor for rape.

DLP: Technically speaking, all rapes are a case of being in "the wrong place at the wrong time". But one cannot be held accountable or blamed for their place in the world. If those guys weren't there, the rape wouldn't have happened. If the girl wasn't there, the rape wouldn't have happened. Wrong place at the wrong time. The girl is a victim of both rape and circumstance... but then again, so are all people (not just females) who are raped.

At no age is rape excusable. The difference between an 18 year old and an 11 year old is mental development. An 11 year old is less responsible for her actions than an 18 year old. Lying about your age isn't an excuse for rape but what purpose does it really serve if you're 11 to claim to be 18? It's telling people around you that "hey, I'm an adult, so treat me like one". A really, REALLY slippery slope.

I can sense your acrimony, Michelle; I'm quite used to the subtle jabs made by those who aren't quite sure what to make of my words. And I'm glad you only flirted with putting words in my mouth, because putting words in my mouth directly is the easiest way to piss me off.

This is always a sensitive subject and everyone is willing to jump the gun, point the finger, and shout "woman hater! rape enabler! bastard!" or other such colorful-yet-completely-bullshit nouns and adjectives at someone who even hints at something that might be *slightly* off from what they want to hear. Well, this is a cold, cruel, unforgiving world and people need to get used to differing opinions and viewpoints.

And Michelle, if you want your daughter to be safe anywhere she goes, be sure you teach her how to defend herself should such a situation arise. Physical education, martial arts, maybe even how to fire a handgun. I have two girls myself, one is 5 and one is 2, and when they are old enough, I'm bringing them to a martial arts school so they will know how to defend themselves against scumbags like these guys who raped this 11 year old girl. They will also be taught, like I was, how to handle a gun.

Joreth InnKeeper: Because the solution to preventing rape is to demand that the women defend themselves and take on the extra burden of learning a difficult and taxing physical activity that won't mean shit when her assailant is also conversant and outweighs her, not to change the culture so that rapists aren't tolerated. /sarcasm

DLP: ‎@Joreth: So women are *supposed* to be weak and defenseless? You make women out to be weaklings with such a ridiculous statement. And you can blame culture all you want but it simply isn't the case no matter how much you want it to be.

Joreth InnKeeper: Has nothing to do with being weak, has to do with plain physics. In a fight where the skill is equivilent, larger mass has a significant edge, regardless of gender. Women tend, on average, to be smaller than males, which gives males, in general, an edge in a hand-to-hand combat situation.

Refusing to accept that we live in a rape culture is part of the problem. You may think you're all progressive with your "my wife is awesome and my daughters will learn karate" but you're part of the problem.  Women are not "supposed to be weak and defensless", women are supposed to be SAFE and should not be REQUIRED to take martial arts just to be able to go out in public. Martial arts should be something a person takes because they're interested in it, not because it is their own fucking responsibility to make sure someone else doesn't violently assault them.

 

DLP: ‎@Joreth: I'm not saying that women should be REQUIRED, I'm saying that it is a method of *empowerment*. You're all for the empowerment of women, right?  Joreth, you are turning this into a personal assault and are therefore doing nothing more than pathetic trolling. I am now going to leave you to your delusions.

 

Joreth InnKeeper: I'm all for people placing the blame where it belongs - on the assailants and on the culture that excuses and condones it. I am not for asshole privileged men pointing out that the rape wouldn't have happened if an innocent child hadn't been where she was in the first place. Sure, and if her father hadn't ever met her mother, she wouldn't have been raped. And if the earth hadn't been exactly where it is in the solar system, she wouldn't have been raped.

The "it wouldn't have happened if she hadn't been there" comment is a red herring. That is a completely useless, irrelevant, and insensitive train of thought and serves absolutely no purpose in bringing it up unless the point is to make it relevant, such as blaming her for being there. Mentioning it is either you babbling incoherently about something that is totally irrelevant, or you are, in fact, blaming the victim by tying it to the incident.

Learning martial arts & using firearms are temporary bandaids to the problem and are not, by themselves, methods of empowerment. Changing the culture to allow women (and men, and transgendered, and anyone else on the planet) to be exactly who they are in safety without repurcussion and without being blamed for being in the "wrong place at the wrong time" is what will bring about empowerment.

The pathetic, deluded troll here is you, with your superiority complex thinking you have all the answers for women. The proper reaction to a story like this is outrage, not telling a little girl that she wouldn't have been gang raped if she just hadn't been there in the first place or that if she had only learned martial arts, she could have fought off her attackers. The responsibility is not hers to prevent violent assault. If people don't like your words, it might not be because you're some genius who provides tough insights that people don't want to acknowledge, but it might possibly be because you're an insensitive asshole who is trying to dodge responsibility for his hurtful words by telling people to grow thicker skin.

Placing the responsibility on the victim to prevent her own assault DISempowers them when it happens and they end up not being able to prevent it, due to random chance of circumstance or the balance of power being in their assailant's favor, such as superior numbers or strength. Then the victim only feels guilty for thinking she could have done something different or more when the true place for guilt should be on the attackers and the culture that encouraged them to try something like that in the first place.

If your daughters are ever attacked on multiple occasions by a gang of men before they even graduate from elementary school, just make sure to remind them that if they hadn't been there, it wouldn't have happened, and if they had only been more skilled at martial arts, they could have fought off those 18 men. Because I'm sure that'll make them feel more empowered.

DLP: If you're looking for me to return fire with insults, then you can forget it. I will not stoop to your level. All I can do is feel extremely sorry for you. It's people like you who keep women down and in the victim's position. Furthermore, I am now blocking you and your repeated hateful comments, insinuations, and vile attitude towards anyone who doesn't agree with your narrow point of view.

Joreth InnKeeper: Just keep on missing the point asshole. Also, it's very rarely a case of being "in the wrong place at the wrong time". The majority of rapes are done by people who knew their victim. These victims were *targeted*, so it doesn't matter if they weren't there, they would have been raped somewhere else.  

That's a great idea - block people whose opinion differs. I suppose it's OK when people who don't like what YOU have to say to tell those people they should just get used to it being a "cold hard world with different opinions", but should anyone dare to suggest that you're wrong, well you don't have to pay any attention to that at all.

Great friend you got there OP - hopefully he's just someone who follows you because you're awesome, and isn't actually a friend to you. Because, with friends like that who want to tell a child who was raped that she should have learned martial arts to fight off 18 attackers, you don't need enemies.

Leave it to a large, white male to think he knows anything about what "keeps women down and in the victim's position". He ought to take a cue from PZ Myers and STFU.

****UPDATE****
There are so many reasons why I love this man! That he gets it is just one of them:

EK: DLP, Joreth isn't knocking self-defense training. She's pointing out that it's tangental to a discussion about blame. She also isn't being hateful, nor is she trolling or "keeping women down". She's trying, perhaps too subtly, to point out that by bringing up self defense as a solution to the problem of rape culture you ARE, in fact, placing culpability for rape on the victim. I know you don't think that's what you're doing at all, but you are.

Sorry, man. You're the bad guy here. Not because you're overtly excusing rape (you obviously aren't), but because you ARE implying that responsibility for preventing rape falls at least in part on the victim. The fact that in some situations the victim *could* take action to prevent the crime does not obligate them to do so, just as it does not make them responsible for it happening.

This thread and the article it links to is about culpability, not rape-prevention techniques (which are not in dispute). The biggest problem with rape is the belief that in some situations or to some extent the victim "asked for it" or "had it coming". By bringing up self-defense in this context, you're promoting this misconception whether you realize it or not.

 

I don't know if ya'll can see this if you're not on FB or not the OP's friend, but here's the link of the original thread, in case anyone wants to chime in where he can read it:

http://www.facebook.com/heidihoanderson/posts/131274646946406?

Comments

[the-failed-poet.livejournal.com]

That is seriously fucked up. @_@ How anyone can react to something like that with anything less than outrage and dismay is beyond me.

[joreth]

I don't get it either, but I think it takes someone who is supremely arrogant and supremely ignorant of his own privilege to think it's appropriate to tell people that a rape is the result of being in the wrong place at the wrong time, that learning martial arts is the way to prevent sexual assault, and that people should just learn to deal with differing opinions while immediately following that up with blocking someone for disagreeing.

Someone on my Twitter, where I've been posting summaries of the encounter, just told me that she was told that she should take karate after her sexual assault. She was offended, and rightly so. I'd wager that her reaction was not uncommon to that sort of suggestion.

[the-failed-poet.livejournal.com]

There seems to be this idea floating around that people are responsible for their own rapes and assaults unless they take increasingly extreme measures to prevent them.

In other words, people moving the goal posts in order to avoid admitting that, yes, there is a rape culture here which is at fault.

[joreth]

That's EXACTLY what was happening. He flat out denied that the culture had any part to play in this topic. Of course, when I suggested that he say those things to his own daughters should they ever be gang raped, that's when he blocked me for being "vile".

I love EK's response when he points out that even if a victim *could* do something to prevent her own rape, she is not obligated to do so because it's the rapist's fault entirely, and Leora's response below about times when even doing everything in your power to protect yourself isn't enough.

[the-failed-poet.livejournal.com]

Right. Taking extra measures to protect oneself shouldn't be necessary, and it's absolutely vile (to steal his word >.>), that we've had to internalise all sorts of paranoia related to dark, empty streets and men in groups. Leora's point about martial arts not being enough is great, but it's also important to note that that's not what they're for.

It doesn't matter how much training you have, the first defense is to run, if you can.

*sigh* It just bothers me that people can't see that even if they're not in danger of being raped themselves, they are also being hurt every day by living in a rape culture.

[leora.livejournal.com]

At what age should she have started learning martial arts? Let's say age 3, old enough that she might be able to walk, talk, and be potty trained. So, he's saying that 8 years of martial arts is sufficient to train an 11 year old body up to the point that it can take on 18 armed assailants when she has nothing but herself?

I'm impressed. I'd like to see him take on 18 armed assailants. He'd obviously have a huge advantage, and even so, I wouldn't expect him to win.

Madman has been training to fight with swords for years now, and his instructor has told him that the first lesson is that if you are actually attacked, you run. Anyone who tells you otherwise is a fool. It doesn't matter how much training you have, the first defense is to run, if you can. She had no chance to run. Martial arts are great, but if you are that badly outnumbered, you are lucky to get out with your life. If she had fought back, she'd likely be dead.

He clearly is a bad martial arts student. He doesn't even know his own field of pretend expertise.

[joreth]

Exactly! In another thread, where I pointed out that women are more likely to be assaulted than large men, his defense was to tell a story about how some guy picked a fight with him that resulted in DLP not knowing if his attacker survived the attack or not.

Martial arts can give a person confidence, but they can also give a person OVERconfidence, and having "won" a fight seems only to be feeding into that delusion.

[joreth]

The really sad part is that he *thinks* he's all progressive and supportive of women and that he's contributing to the betterment of society by suggesting self-defense for women. It's such a shame when people genuinely want to do the right thing, but are so blinded by their own privileged position that they can't see when they're adding to the harm, and refuse to even consider that the reason everyone "misunderstands" them is because they're "doin' it wrong".

Sometimes, when it's you against the world - the world is wrong. But sometimes, when everyone disagrees with you, there's a reason for that - it's because you're the one who is wrong.

[joreth]

Yeah, I get that people make mistakes, and that we're all subject to our own biases and perceptions. But, as you can see by the edit I made, EK made a considerably nicer post pointing out exactly where the problems with DLP's stance lie. What I didn't post was his response (because he's blocked me so I can't read them), which, EK tells me, is not an introspective look at his behaviour from other points of view, but more digging in of his heels at how he's the only one who cares about women getting raped and with so many people like us who want to "keep women down", he might as well just give up on humanity now.

*sigh*

[corpsefairy.livejournal.com]

He's talking as if rape is this thing that happens, like a hurricane or an earthquake, as opposed a thing that people do to other people. He has completely removed the rapist from the equation and is concentrating only on the behavior of the victim. That's a totally absurd position, and it is, sadly, common.

Part of rape culture is that rape is seen as a natural event, something that just happens, something that is even inevitable in certain circumstances. People forget that in order for rape to happen, you need a rapist. The best way to prevent rape is not to teach women martial arts or to never take a drink, but to prevent people from becoming rapists in the first place.

[vicariance.livejournal.com]

yes, exactly! He is looking as rape as a force of nature! Thank you for capturing that part of his view. It was what I was trying to express but didn't do a great job.

[joreth]

Exactly.

[vicariance.livejournal.com]

datan0de is so great. I am so impressed. Cuz, joreth, you have to admit, you were being way hostile. It's not suprising that bucko ran away pretty much immediately.

Dude is obviously a pragmatist, and you are an idealist. I expect that "changing the culture so that rapists aren't tolerated" is a endeavor that is beyond the guy's ability to contemplate. He sees a world with rapists hiding in the shadows and nothing anyone can do about it except learn to protect themselves. He does not give civilization credit for being able to protect its constituency. And I have a hard time of that myself. But even so I am also an idealist, just that my idealism depends on humankind being conquered by a race of benevolent machine-based superior intelligences :P

[petite-lambda.livejournal.com]

He sees a world with rapists hiding in the shadows and nothing anyone can do about it except learn to protect themselves.

Cynic, n: a blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be.

[vicariance.livejournal.com]

yay for the devil's dictionary!

[joreth]

I was being hostile, but that's because this was not my first encounter with him and I had lost my temper by the time we started on this particular thread. The other thread was more of the same, really.

[petite-lambda.livejournal.com]

Well, this particular guy is indeed an asshole. What damned him for me was the first thing he said – how if the child hasn’t been there, this wouldn’t have happened. As you pointed out, this is irrelevant in the very best case…

However… [taking a deep breath] In general (not in this particular case!!!), I think he has a point. A very important and valid point, too.

Like [Bad username or site: ”vicariance” @ livejournal.com] noted, you have a general argument here of idealists vs. pragmatists. Idealists try to identify and treat the root of the problem. Pragmatists try treating the symptoms. And you know what? Both of you are wrong and right at the same time! You are both right in proposing a good approach. You are both wrong in thinking that’s strictly an either-or. In other words: you cannot overestimate the importance of treating the symptoms while attempting to work on the root cause of the problem. I wouldn’t call it a “bandaid solution” – a “chemotherapy solution” is a better analogy, imo. Chemo is horrible! The side effects are devastating. And the person often ends up dying anyway. It would be infinitely better if we could just prevent cancer in the first place, right? So people should focus their research on that. And they do – but while they’re at it, we should also give grants to research on better chemo and better surgeries and better other treatment options… because conquering the root cause(s) of cancer is a very long road in the meantime we should try to save as many lives as we can with treatment.

It’s exactly the same with crime (crime in general, and rape in particular). In a perfect world, there would be no crime. But all the while we try to develop the culture that will bring this perfect world closer, we better be aware that we’re not there yet – and we better take appropriate precautions. I noticed that this observation ticks people off… I suspect that it is because it gets close to blaming the victim. And you know, that’s true to some extent – I do believe that the “never-ever blame the victim of anything in anything” trope is simply not correct. An example: what would happen to me if I were to take a walk in an Arab neighborhood of Jerusalem? (I'm an Israeli). Answer: gang rape would be one of the best case scenarios (unfortunately, that’s not an exaggeration); more likely, after the gang rape I would also be beaten and stabbed to death and my body hung out of a window. So… a trick question: knowing what I know, if I decided to take this walk and all of the above happened, would I have any blame for it? (Again, this has no connection whatsoever with the 11 year old child situation). If I understand your general philosophy, you believe that the blame would lie 100% on the savages (or on the “oppressive Israeli government”, or whatever) – and in no way on me. But I disagree. If I were to do something like that, I should be getting a Darwin award. It’s simple common sense. [contd.]

[joreth]

I absolutely do not think there is strictly an either/or approach. As datan0de pointed out, this was a discussion about blame, and a discussion about prevention is a separate topic. The part you missed was another thread in which we *did* talk about prevention.

The either/or part is not "there is One Method To Handle Rape Issues", the either/or part is "this is a discussion about This Topic and that is a discussion about That Topic".

By mixing a discussion about prevention into a discussion about blame, you conflate the two, and THAT was what I was getting angry about.

If you want to discuss how to prevent rape in the current culture, you talk about self-defense & other similar issues. But if you want to talk about who is at fault, rape prevention is a red herring.

I am not an idealist, I am a pragmatist. It is not pragmatic to talk about how to prevent rape in a discussion about who is to blame in a rape case. That shifts the focus to blaming the victim, is a red herring, knocks us off track, and does not solve the problem.

[petite-lambda.livejournal.com]

The part you missed was another thread in which we *did* talk about prevention.

Oh, you're totally right, I did miss that!

Prevention and blame are rather related, in general. For example, when talking about blame, you did mention the "rape society" -- which has a lot to do with prevention (good laws, good education, etc.). Anyway, you're right -- if the guy actually participated in both different threads and tried to make them both be about the same thing -- that was stupid of him.

[petite-lambda.livejournal.com]

[contd.]
And that’s one of the reasons I learn Brazilian jiu jitsu. Granted, it’s a bandaid solution – but it might save my life in a world where scumbags are a sad part of reality. And btw: I don’t fully agree with you about rape culture. Sure, educating and changing the culture will help against some rapists – namely, the idiots (you know, the ones who honestly don’t get the “no means no” thing); but I don’t think that social activism can do anything at all against sociopaths. The rapists who know very well that she doesn’t want it, who love exactly that – who get off on causing fear and pain, on having an absolute power over another human being. Joreth, these people don’t have the approval of our society – in fact, they don’t want it! They consider themselves ABOVE the society – they think of themselves as lions in a society of sheep. To them, you and I exist for their amusement. These people will always exist! Call me a pessimist, but I don’t believe that any amount of persuasion can change them (and actually, I’m relying on medical data here – it’s a known fact that therapy doesn’t work on sociopaths). Until people learn to chemically alter personalities (which will cause whole ‘nother slew of ethical problems…), sociopaths will remain a sad part of our world. And the only thing we can do about them is learn Brazilian jiu jitsu or carry a weapon – preferably both.

And it is empowering. True, it can happen that I will end up feeling even worse if I get raped, because of the perfectionist "I failed, I should have avoided it" thoughts -- you are right about that. However, knowing that I work to make myself as strong as I can be, enabling myself to rely on myself... that's such a great feeling! (I'm sorry, I realize I don't describe it well -- but just trust me, it feels totally awesome.) And btw., in one on one situation, if the guy doesn't have a weapon -- I believe I have a good chance against him, even if he is bigger and stronger. That's BJJ's speciality.

chemical personality alteration

[vicariance.livejournal.com]

Yes, there is that, and there is also the future in which every dark corner will be lit by the soothing grace of video transmission to our AI overlords. Both are a solution to sociopaths, and we won't have to worry about the ethics of either. They will simply be mandated by perfectly objective machine rulers! Yay!

I am sad that you live in Israel that I cannot find you and become bosom companions with you :(

Re: chemical personality alteration

[petite-lambda.livejournal.com]

Aww, thanks! :-)

"Bosom companions" sounds lovely... whatever that is :-) You sound cool, too! (Except when being rude to rosary soldiers... but I digress). Actually, I'm moving to Canada rather soon (although, from my limited knowledge of geography, that wouldn't help much, right?)

Re: chemical personality alteration

[vicariance.livejournal.com]

I mean, it helps! Canada is half the distance and has alot less ocean in the way. But it's still pretty far.

As for the rosary soldier bit. You understand who those people are, yes? They are people who stand in front of abortion clinics to tell women that they are going to hell. They are the least respect-worthy of all noncriminals.

Bosom companions are people who skip about arm-in-arm on their way to the dance hall or some other lively aid to carousing :)

Re: chemical personality alteration

[petite-lambda.livejournal.com]

Okay, I'll debate this point on your journal, seems like a better place for it :-)

[joreth]

The point of changing rape culture is not to change every single individual's idea of entitlement. That is something that will not change - someone will always feel entitled.

Changing rape culture means changing the culture around them to make it personally cost-ineffective to the rapist because the culture does not condone, approve, or even ignore things like rape.

Perhaps you missed the part where I carry weapons, know some self-defense, and am a gun advocate? I reiterate - I am not either/or, the asshole was. He did not want to give any credit to the concept of rape culture at all and wanted to *stop* with the self-defense preventative measure as if that was good enough.

[petite-lambda.livejournal.com]

"Changing rape culture means changing the culture around them to make it personally cost-ineffective to the rapist because the culture does not condone, approve, or even ignore things like rape."

Okay, maybe I'm blissfully ignorant... but what do you mean by that? I assume you don't talk about Iran, right? Which culture condones, approves, or ignores rape? [We're talking about situations where the rapist knows 100% that he is committing a rape, like the situation in question]