![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
Skeptic, atheist, biologist of some note, PZ Myers has asked the question, what can we do to get women more active in the skeptic and science communities. Sometimes this is a condescending question, but PZ seems to really and truly believe in equality, that women are valid, contributing members of society, and is completely baffled at all attempts to segregate or patronize women. He just does not get why some people think the patriarchy is the best option or why some people think men and women are significantly different. He also doesn't come across like some of the woo-meisters who would like to place women on a pedestal above men. He is, in the same way ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
tacit is, a true egalitarian who manages, most of the time, to not let his position of privilege as a white, middle-class male, make him sound patronizing or condescending when railing against inequality or asking how to fix the problem.
He asked the question in his blog, and decided to just sit back and let women answer the question of what could get us more involved, rather than to attempt to come up with answers as a white, middle-class male of privilege looking in from the outside. He also asked the men to stay out of it, which should hopefully prevent well-meaning but clearly clueless-of-his-entitlement men from butting in, like the guy who once answered this same question with "how about more secular wedding ceremonies? Women might become atheists if they didn't have to give up the dress and the big party." (yes, someone did say that, I will spare you my scathing retort, as it's only tangential to my main point here)
Here's my answer, that really needs to be fleshed out, but I wanted to post here for reference, and as a place to start:
I *really* wanted to read all the comments before I chimed in, so I didn't repeat anything, but there are LOTS of comments!
So, you asked for women to post their blogs or other activist activity. I can be found at http://joreth.livejournal.com where I talk about lots of things, including science, skepticism, and atheism. You can also add /tag/science or /tag/atheism to the end of that URL to read just those articles. I also have /tag/gender20%issues for posts that rant about these sorts of issues as a woman who works in a male-dominated field and who dabbles in other male-dominated arenas, like science and the internet.
As for what I, as a woman, would want that would get me more active in the science and skeptical communities? Well, several people have mentioned financial aid, and that would definitely help. I like the idea of a big, mainstream convention that chose as a theme women's interests, but not a women-specific convention (as I believe you, PZ, mentioned you were not suggesting). I'd love to get out to TAM or some of these other events, but I just can't afford them. I have to settle for the Skeptics Track at Dragon*Con for all my skeptical convention activity (which is a pretty fantastic venue, btw). It's almost-local and certainly the closest one to me, closer than any other. More local conventions would help too, even if they're not as large as the national conventions.
Also, as some were saying, people who represent skepticism and science from other angles, like artists, musicians, performers, philosophers, etc. Some workshops on community building from community leaders would be a good idea, so we can start our own organizations and communities even if we're not scientists ourselves. Some non-science-focused events, for those of us who aren't scientists but who support science and critical thinking - this new trend of Skeptics In The Pub is a great idea. How about something like The Skeptics Movie Society, or Skeptics Book Clubs, social events where people can do things that aren't strictly science-based but with skeptically minded people. I'd love to attend a dance with all skeptic, science, and atheist music - something where I can have a romantic slow dance without a song invoking god or fate and where, maybe, we can even poke a little fun at ourselves with some humorous music or performances.
As a community leader myself, I'm yelling at myself in my head, that if anyone made all these suggestions to me, I'd be wanting to say "great ideas, why don't you get on that?" It can get really frustrating to hear people say they want certain things out of their community, but don't make any effort to contribute to getting those things accomplished. So that's why I suggested including some community leaders that are not necessarily skeptical leaders, to offer workshops on how to build our own communities right where we are to offer all these services that we think the skeptical community is currently lacking. Many people have good ideas for what they'd like to see, but haven't the faintest idea how to go about implementing them, and don't think they have any skills to contribute to getting these things done.
I also think we need some cultural changing that says logic is not a mens-only domain, being loud and aggressive is not a mens-only domain, science, especially the hard sciences, are not mens-only domains, and that there shouldn't be certain areas that men need to *do something* to cater to women in order to invite them in.
There is nothing inherently masculine about being loud and brassy. There is nothing inherently de-feminizing about liking sports or science or power tools. I can be feminine, female, sexy, demure, and anything else that is supposed to signify "woman" while still being logical, analytical, scientific, mechanical, athletic, or anything else that's supposed to signify "man". These dichotomies of what makes us "woman" and "man" are false dichotomies. There is more variation among women and more variation among men, than there is between men and women as groups, even counting sexual dimorphism. And we need to make our society accept that.
I think it is only when we embrace the concept that there is no such thing as "man's domain" and "woman's domain" will we see more gender balance among subsets of people. I am not being "like a guy" because I play with power tools for a living. I am being "like a woman" because I am a woman who likes to play with power tools, so therefore playing with power tools is a woman's thing because this woman does it. I am not diminishing my accomplishments in a mechanical career because I also like to cook, which is traditionally a "woman's domain". They both use the same skill sets - an understanding of mechanics and chemistry, and an inspirational drive to create things. These are not the domains of either women or men, these are the domains of humans. When we learn that, women will stop feeling so intimidated, and men will stop feeling so threatened.
A plausible hypotheses for why women are so inclined to be steeped in woo, for example, is because that's where women feel they have more power. When society strips women of their power to contribute equally to society, women find some other outlet that gives them a sense of taking back some of that power, and so fall for The Goddess and alt-med with its easy fixes, and psychic phenomena which women are supposedly more "in tune" with because of "women's intuition". So a general cultural shift away from sexism and patriarchy would remove some women's need to find their own power in a fantasy world because they would have power in our society based on their own merits. If a woman's voice is ignored without the power of the dead behind it, I can see why wanting to develop psychic abilities would be so tempting. But if a woman's voice is heard simply because she's speaking, then she doesn't need to be bringing messages from dead relatives to get attention or build a power base.
I don't know that this is something the skeptical community should be doing within itself, but it is definitely something the skeptical and the equality communities should be doing to our culture at large.
But PZ, your continued insistence on gender equality, not as a pandering patriarch who must make allowances for the wimmenfolk, but as someone who truly understands equality, does a great deal for the community in making women feel appreciated and their contributions valued. More men who can express their equality views without sounding like they're pandering or being condescending would be very welcome.
tacit is, a true egalitarian who manages, most of the time, to not let his position of privilege as a white, middle-class male, make him sound patronizing or condescending when railing against inequality or asking how to fix the problem.He asked the question in his blog, and decided to just sit back and let women answer the question of what could get us more involved, rather than to attempt to come up with answers as a white, middle-class male of privilege looking in from the outside. He also asked the men to stay out of it, which should hopefully prevent well-meaning but clearly clueless-of-his-entitlement men from butting in, like the guy who once answered this same question with "how about more secular wedding ceremonies? Women might become atheists if they didn't have to give up the dress and the big party." (yes, someone did say that, I will spare you my scathing retort, as it's only tangential to my main point here)
Here's my answer, that really needs to be fleshed out, but I wanted to post here for reference, and as a place to start:
I *really* wanted to read all the comments before I chimed in, so I didn't repeat anything, but there are LOTS of comments!
So, you asked for women to post their blogs or other activist activity. I can be found at http://joreth.livejournal.com where I talk about lots of things, including science, skepticism, and atheism. You can also add /tag/science or /tag/atheism to the end of that URL to read just those articles. I also have /tag/gender20%issues for posts that rant about these sorts of issues as a woman who works in a male-dominated field and who dabbles in other male-dominated arenas, like science and the internet.
As for what I, as a woman, would want that would get me more active in the science and skeptical communities? Well, several people have mentioned financial aid, and that would definitely help. I like the idea of a big, mainstream convention that chose as a theme women's interests, but not a women-specific convention (as I believe you, PZ, mentioned you were not suggesting). I'd love to get out to TAM or some of these other events, but I just can't afford them. I have to settle for the Skeptics Track at Dragon*Con for all my skeptical convention activity (which is a pretty fantastic venue, btw). It's almost-local and certainly the closest one to me, closer than any other. More local conventions would help too, even if they're not as large as the national conventions.
Also, as some were saying, people who represent skepticism and science from other angles, like artists, musicians, performers, philosophers, etc. Some workshops on community building from community leaders would be a good idea, so we can start our own organizations and communities even if we're not scientists ourselves. Some non-science-focused events, for those of us who aren't scientists but who support science and critical thinking - this new trend of Skeptics In The Pub is a great idea. How about something like The Skeptics Movie Society, or Skeptics Book Clubs, social events where people can do things that aren't strictly science-based but with skeptically minded people. I'd love to attend a dance with all skeptic, science, and atheist music - something where I can have a romantic slow dance without a song invoking god or fate and where, maybe, we can even poke a little fun at ourselves with some humorous music or performances.
As a community leader myself, I'm yelling at myself in my head, that if anyone made all these suggestions to me, I'd be wanting to say "great ideas, why don't you get on that?" It can get really frustrating to hear people say they want certain things out of their community, but don't make any effort to contribute to getting those things accomplished. So that's why I suggested including some community leaders that are not necessarily skeptical leaders, to offer workshops on how to build our own communities right where we are to offer all these services that we think the skeptical community is currently lacking. Many people have good ideas for what they'd like to see, but haven't the faintest idea how to go about implementing them, and don't think they have any skills to contribute to getting these things done.
I also think we need some cultural changing that says logic is not a mens-only domain, being loud and aggressive is not a mens-only domain, science, especially the hard sciences, are not mens-only domains, and that there shouldn't be certain areas that men need to *do something* to cater to women in order to invite them in.
There is nothing inherently masculine about being loud and brassy. There is nothing inherently de-feminizing about liking sports or science or power tools. I can be feminine, female, sexy, demure, and anything else that is supposed to signify "woman" while still being logical, analytical, scientific, mechanical, athletic, or anything else that's supposed to signify "man". These dichotomies of what makes us "woman" and "man" are false dichotomies. There is more variation among women and more variation among men, than there is between men and women as groups, even counting sexual dimorphism. And we need to make our society accept that.
I think it is only when we embrace the concept that there is no such thing as "man's domain" and "woman's domain" will we see more gender balance among subsets of people. I am not being "like a guy" because I play with power tools for a living. I am being "like a woman" because I am a woman who likes to play with power tools, so therefore playing with power tools is a woman's thing because this woman does it. I am not diminishing my accomplishments in a mechanical career because I also like to cook, which is traditionally a "woman's domain". They both use the same skill sets - an understanding of mechanics and chemistry, and an inspirational drive to create things. These are not the domains of either women or men, these are the domains of humans. When we learn that, women will stop feeling so intimidated, and men will stop feeling so threatened.
A plausible hypotheses for why women are so inclined to be steeped in woo, for example, is because that's where women feel they have more power. When society strips women of their power to contribute equally to society, women find some other outlet that gives them a sense of taking back some of that power, and so fall for The Goddess and alt-med with its easy fixes, and psychic phenomena which women are supposedly more "in tune" with because of "women's intuition". So a general cultural shift away from sexism and patriarchy would remove some women's need to find their own power in a fantasy world because they would have power in our society based on their own merits. If a woman's voice is ignored without the power of the dead behind it, I can see why wanting to develop psychic abilities would be so tempting. But if a woman's voice is heard simply because she's speaking, then she doesn't need to be bringing messages from dead relatives to get attention or build a power base.
I don't know that this is something the skeptical community should be doing within itself, but it is definitely something the skeptical and the equality communities should be doing to our culture at large.
But PZ, your continued insistence on gender equality, not as a pandering patriarch who must make allowances for the wimmenfolk, but as someone who truly understands equality, does a great deal for the community in making women feel appreciated and their contributions valued. More men who can express their equality views without sounding like they're pandering or being condescending would be very welcome.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 7/8/10 02:36 pm (UTC)From:I can be quite loud, brassy, and aggressive. But I also suffer from social anxiety due to various causes, and therefore am not always loud, brassy, and aggressive — especially in a room full of people I do not know. Other people may have PTSD, or ASDs, or simply temperaments that do not do "brassy" well. Why are they wrong, and the always-loud, always-aggressive people right? Why cannot the atheist movement accommodate various approaches?
Furthermore, you are not accounting for the fact that women are still overwhelmingly socialized to "play nice," to "not make waves." It's great for you that you were never socialized this way, but your situation is far from universal. I think that many women who weren't subjected to oppressive socialization seriously underestimate the number it can do on one's head, and their remarks often come off as implying that such unfortunate women are just too "weak-willed" and need to "grow a spine." Sometimes they do. However, depending on how badly they were convinced of their own inferiority, that process can take a long time.
Finally, yes, men DO need to "do something" — and I'll add that taking someone else's lived experiences into consideration is not "catering," but being empathetic. As many, many women in that thread have been pointing out, the atheist community is rife with the same privileges and blinders that afflict the rest of society — in some circles, even more so, given the extent to which it is dominated by affluent white cisgendered males, many of whom are libertarians. This is why PZ told the men to be quiet and let the women talk — and, as you can see, some of them still didn't get the message.
I do not believe that it's women's job to end sexism and misogyny. It's men's. We can fight for the end of such bigotries, but men are the privileged sex, and they most definitely have a moral obligation to stop perpetuating anti-woman memes and/or call out their fellow men on the same.
no subject
Date: 7/8/10 07:12 pm (UTC)From:Nope, not implying that at all. I'm saying that those who *are* are no less feminine or female than those who aren't.
Furthermore, you are not accounting for the fact that women are still overwhelmingly socialized to "play nice," to "not make waves."
Actually, I am most definitely accounting for that fact, and I'm saying that needs to change. I was raised that way too - don't make assumptions about my upbringing or anything else about me that I haven't explicitly stated.
Finally, yes, men DO need to "do something"
I'm not saying that men shouldn't do *anything*, I'm saying that they shouldn't shoulder the burden entirely, particularly those who aren't contributing to the problem in the first place. PZ Myers, for instance, is already "doing something" by virtue of being egalitarian, but he is not the *only* one who should do something for women - we should learn to help ourselves.
When the military started making compensations for women who wanted to enter that domain, I think that hurts us all. A woman absolutely has the right to be in the military, but she must also be able to maintain the same standards that make the military the elite fighting force that it is. Giving her a stool to help her over the wall hurts her in the long run when she's running from the enemy and can't jump the wall because no drill sargent is there with a step stool for her. Allowing her to carry less weight means her injured teammate is in more danger for her being there since she can't carry him off the battlefield when a stronger person could have.
This is what I meant by "doing something". We shouldn't be making compensations, we should just be accepting that people are people, and evaluate them on their individual merits for whatever situation we're evaluating them for.
I think you're wrong to say it's the men's job. I think it's both. Thinking that the men are the only ones who have anything to do in this fight is just a reverse sexism. Perhaps men have the larger burden, perhaps not, but that doesn't absolve the women of doing their share either. Too many women engage in slut-shaming and other behaviours that encourage continued sexism. We need to step up and insist on our rights to equality.
no subject
Date: 7/8/10 07:37 pm (UTC)From:Excuse me? Since when aren't we helping ourselves? Dozens of women in that thread posted about their experiences of struggling against sexism and being simply too damn tired to fight every battle, especially when they're disproportionately stuck with things like housework and child-rearing.
Let more men confront their own privilege and pick up some of the slack already. Yeah, it's nice that PZ did so. He's just one man. Perhaps you missed all the derailing in that thread by Cobolt, Sven DiMilo, and other jerks who felt that no thread could be complete without their d00dly interjections?
When the military started making compensations for women who wanted to enter that domain, I think that hurts us all.
I'd rather worry about the military lowering its standards to admit violent felons, and, even more so, about rampant sexual harassment and rape against female military personnel going unreported. But thanks for your concern about how women are ruining the military. I'm sure my woman friends who are veterans would appreciate it, too.
We shouldn't be making compensations, we should just be accepting that people are people, and evaluate them on their individual merits for whatever situation we're evaluating them for.
They're not "compensations." They're reasonable accommodations based on the fact that different groups of people do tend to share certain experiences. (And your implication that only loud, aggressive people have anything worthwhile to say isn't what I'd call accepting of people's differences. It's not even consistent with most people's experience of life.)
Seriously, do you even understand that this is a basic foundation of feminism, that we're not all simply individuals, but that we're also subject to societal forces and that some battles are collective?
Thinking that the men are the only ones who have anything to do in this fight is just a reverse sexism.
No, apparently your understanding of feminism is somewhat lacking. (http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Reverse_sexism)
no subject
Date: 7/8/10 07:48 pm (UTC)From:I also never said men should never do anything, in fact, I repeated that. I'm not arguing that men shouldn't confront their own privilege and pick up some of the slack.
Again with the straw men. Those concerns you have are valid concerns and I never said they weren't. I also never said women were ruining the military. But a woman, and a man, should be able to maintain the standards necessary to be the best fighting force we have. Lowering the standards for any reason hurts the military, and plenty of women do not need the standards lowered. For the ones who do, they should not be catered to because it hurts the whole. That goes for the physically weak men, felons, rapists, etc. ALL standards should be met and not given exemptions for.
Sorry, but some things are "compensations", and some things are "reasonable accommodations". I'm not saying anything against the reasonable accommodations, I'm saying something against the compensations. If it's not a compensation, then I'm not taking about that.
I will repeat myself on this next point only one more time, after that, I will assume you are deliberately ignoring my points. I did not say anything about all women should be loud and brassy. I said that being loud and brassy was not a mens-only trait. Some women are loud, some women are not, some men are loud, and some men are not. It's not a gender-specific trait.
Seriously, did you even read what I wrote or are you just looking for a fight?
I am not now, nor have I ever claimed to be fighting for "feminism", nor did I claim any understanding of the term, nor did I use the term. I am arguing for equality, and sometimes the women hurt themselves.
no subject
Date: 7/8/10 08:00 pm (UTC)From:Yes, I did read what you wrote. I'd say that a lot of other feminists would have responded in a fashion similar to mine, some with more invective.
Anyway, best of luck to you. I don't have much use for Special Females™ with superficial understandings of feminism who think that the rest of us are "looking for a fight" when we disagree with you.
no subject
Date: 7/8/10 08:04 pm (UTC)From:The only point I made at all was that women need to assist in their own liberation and position of equality, which is true. This does not, in any way, exempt men from their wrongdoing when it happens, nor relieve them of their responsibility in the ongoing fight for equality.