I just had the most vexing conversation. It is a shining example of all that is wrong with sexual education in this day and age. So, a guy IMed me on OKC, opening with "can I ask you a question about sex?" I responded with "that depends, did you read my profile?" People routinely message me with honest questions about sex, poly, and BDSM, so I didn't want to immediately tell him to fuck off. Luckily for him, he was not hitting on me. That was the only good thing I can say about him.
The rest of the conversation was an excercize in frustration as it consisted almost exclusively of me repeating the following phrases over and over:
~Every woman is unique and individual, there is no "normal".
~I have no idea what she wants, ask her.
Basically, he's a 22 year old male who has never had a sexual encounter in his life, now planning to marry a girl whom he didn't used to like when he first met her, has broken up with her several times, and she has demanded that he provide her with sex every day once they get married (and he doesn't want to), and who makes him so uncomfortable that he has forbidden her from talking about anything sexual until after they get married.
He knows absolutely nothing about the reproductive system like, how does the female orgasm work, do women squirt stuff out like men do when they orgasm, where is the g-spot, and what happens to the sperm when it enters the female body.
But, worst of all, he knows absolutely nothing about his partner, what she likes, what she doesn't like, what she expects, other than she expects sex daily for the rest of her life.
Now, I made a point about insisting there is no "normal", but before ya'll go off about "average women" and "most women", etc, let me explain.
He wants to save himself for marriage and believes he will remain married for life. When he asks "what do women like", he does not actually want to know what women like, he wants to know what *his partner* will like. He has no interest in learning what other women like, he wants to learn how to be good at sex before actually experiencing sex and he wants to know what will turn his partner on without asking her what will turn her on.
Most of his questions revolved around preferences, not actual biology. Biologically speaking, yes, there are some standards, some normals, some usuallys, and some typicals. But knowing what is "normal" in this respect is really only good for isolating if there is a medical problem that needs attention.
When it comes to preferences, the only constant is that there is no constant. The human sexual experience is as varied and unique as each human who has the experience is. What turns me on will not turn on his girlfriend. What turns me on right now will not turn me on tomorrow. The sheer depth, breadth and scope of my likes and dislikes have taken me an entire lifetime of experimentation to discover, and I'm not done yet! And that has absolutely nothing to do with his girlfriend.
So I really needed to hammer home to him that the only way to find out what his girlfriend likes is to ask his girlfriend. I did mention 3 times that I could discuss biology with him, but when it comes to preferences, it is totally useless to ask me about "normal" when what he is really trying to do is find out how to please his girlfriend without asking and without practicing. But he absolutely refused to listen and insisted on continuing to ask me preference questions, getting upset when I merely repeated "ask your girlfriend".
I'm afraid I was quite impatient with him, but mainly because I was so frustrated with society in general for letting him get to age 22, having so little experience with sex that he doesn't know even the most basic reproducive facts, or even where to start experimenting to find out what makes his partner tick. He wanted to know if he should stroke her hard or soft. How the hell should I know? Maybe she likes it hard. Maybe she likes it soft. Maybe she likes it both ways, and which way depends on a lot of different factors, including her mood and her personal physiology at that moment. Or maybe she has no fricken idea because she's just as inexperienced as he is.
He is so inexperienced, that the very topic of sex makes him umcomfortable to the point of refusing to even discuss sex with the woman he wants to marry and who expects him to have sex with her every day. It never occured to him that he had some say in his sexual future and that he should be working *with* her to find a cooperative sex life OR that practicing at sex was what made it good. He actually said to me that he figured he would take care of all that after the wedding. They would find out if they were compatible after the wedding. They would talk about their needs and wants after the wedding. Is there possibly a worse setup for a marriage?
A wedding ring is not a magic ring that makes sex good and makes two people compatible in the bedroom. There are only 2 things that have even a chance at accomplishing that, and they're not guaranteed. Those two things are practice and communication. You absolutely cannot learn what your partner likes, or expect your partner to learn what you like, if you do not communicate. You've got to be able to have frank and candid conversations about sex, what you like, what you don't like, what your expectations are, and to ask questions. Verbal communication is important, but non-verbal communication can be important too, especially during sex. If you are too embarassed to say "yeah, baby, keep doing it like that" or "honey, can you move your hand a little slower please?", moaning, moving your body, taking your hand and physically directing your partner will work too, and can be very helpful. And if you haven't been practicing, then you won't even know what to communicate to your partner in the first place.
The idea that none of this should even be considered until after you're married is the most ludicrous idea I've ever heard for relationships. Abstinance-only philosphy perpetuates the myth that the wedding ring is a magic ring. That you won't ever have to practice anything or talk about anything, it will just magically be good and you will magically be compatible because your relationship is directed by god.
Now, regular readers of my journal already know that abstinance-only education's goals of preventing teen pregnancy and STDs is absolute bullshit. But let's just assume that it's true. As![[profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
zen_shootersays, let's just pretend that abstinence-only philosophy isn't the biggest load of horseshit ever. What we're left with is a generation of 18-year-olds getting hitched to the first guy with dreamy eyes and who absolutely have no idea how to control their own reproductive system. And we have 16-year olds having anal sex before vaginal sex because "anal doesn't count"!
Now, when I was a kid, anal sex was the advanced sex. That's what you did if you were especially kinky. Now it's what you do before PIV sex! Huh? And kids are getting anal STDs because they're not using condoms because anal sex isn't real sex, so it doesn't count!
So, anyway, back to this kid. I don't know if he's a product of the American abstinance-only education or somewhere abroad, I only know that English is not his first language. But I do know that a very large portion of people who save their virginity for marriage are religious-based and usually completely ignorant of sexual biology, I assume because those who are educated about sex understand the need for practice (even if it's only solo practice) and communication for a satisfying sex life. And this kid is no exception.
It actually took me over an hour of repeating "talk to your girlfriend" before he stopped saying "stop telling me to talk to her, I want to know in general what girls like" and finally agreed to talk to her. I'm pretty sure he still doesn't understand why that's important.
He doesn't know sexual biology. He doesn't know what girls like in bed. He doesn't know what *his* girl likes in bed. And he's terrified to talk to her about it. He's going to tie himself for life (I give him more like 8 years) to a girl who wants to have sex more often than he does, and he's afraid to talk to her. She's going to see him naked, she's going to see him completely ignorant of her body, and he's afraid to talk to her.
I really can't do anything else but bang my head on my desk, turn on another episode of Red Dwarf, and try to forget that there are people so intentionally ignorant of life just long enough to stop ranting in my own head so I can go to sleep.
The rest of the conversation was an excercize in frustration as it consisted almost exclusively of me repeating the following phrases over and over:
~Every woman is unique and individual, there is no "normal".
~I have no idea what she wants, ask her.
Basically, he's a 22 year old male who has never had a sexual encounter in his life, now planning to marry a girl whom he didn't used to like when he first met her, has broken up with her several times, and she has demanded that he provide her with sex every day once they get married (and he doesn't want to), and who makes him so uncomfortable that he has forbidden her from talking about anything sexual until after they get married.
He knows absolutely nothing about the reproductive system like, how does the female orgasm work, do women squirt stuff out like men do when they orgasm, where is the g-spot, and what happens to the sperm when it enters the female body.
But, worst of all, he knows absolutely nothing about his partner, what she likes, what she doesn't like, what she expects, other than she expects sex daily for the rest of her life.
Now, I made a point about insisting there is no "normal", but before ya'll go off about "average women" and "most women", etc, let me explain.
He wants to save himself for marriage and believes he will remain married for life. When he asks "what do women like", he does not actually want to know what women like, he wants to know what *his partner* will like. He has no interest in learning what other women like, he wants to learn how to be good at sex before actually experiencing sex and he wants to know what will turn his partner on without asking her what will turn her on.
Most of his questions revolved around preferences, not actual biology. Biologically speaking, yes, there are some standards, some normals, some usuallys, and some typicals. But knowing what is "normal" in this respect is really only good for isolating if there is a medical problem that needs attention.
When it comes to preferences, the only constant is that there is no constant. The human sexual experience is as varied and unique as each human who has the experience is. What turns me on will not turn on his girlfriend. What turns me on right now will not turn me on tomorrow. The sheer depth, breadth and scope of my likes and dislikes have taken me an entire lifetime of experimentation to discover, and I'm not done yet! And that has absolutely nothing to do with his girlfriend.
So I really needed to hammer home to him that the only way to find out what his girlfriend likes is to ask his girlfriend. I did mention 3 times that I could discuss biology with him, but when it comes to preferences, it is totally useless to ask me about "normal" when what he is really trying to do is find out how to please his girlfriend without asking and without practicing. But he absolutely refused to listen and insisted on continuing to ask me preference questions, getting upset when I merely repeated "ask your girlfriend".
I'm afraid I was quite impatient with him, but mainly because I was so frustrated with society in general for letting him get to age 22, having so little experience with sex that he doesn't know even the most basic reproducive facts, or even where to start experimenting to find out what makes his partner tick. He wanted to know if he should stroke her hard or soft. How the hell should I know? Maybe she likes it hard. Maybe she likes it soft. Maybe she likes it both ways, and which way depends on a lot of different factors, including her mood and her personal physiology at that moment. Or maybe she has no fricken idea because she's just as inexperienced as he is.
He is so inexperienced, that the very topic of sex makes him umcomfortable to the point of refusing to even discuss sex with the woman he wants to marry and who expects him to have sex with her every day. It never occured to him that he had some say in his sexual future and that he should be working *with* her to find a cooperative sex life OR that practicing at sex was what made it good. He actually said to me that he figured he would take care of all that after the wedding. They would find out if they were compatible after the wedding. They would talk about their needs and wants after the wedding. Is there possibly a worse setup for a marriage?
A wedding ring is not a magic ring that makes sex good and makes two people compatible in the bedroom. There are only 2 things that have even a chance at accomplishing that, and they're not guaranteed. Those two things are practice and communication. You absolutely cannot learn what your partner likes, or expect your partner to learn what you like, if you do not communicate. You've got to be able to have frank and candid conversations about sex, what you like, what you don't like, what your expectations are, and to ask questions. Verbal communication is important, but non-verbal communication can be important too, especially during sex. If you are too embarassed to say "yeah, baby, keep doing it like that" or "honey, can you move your hand a little slower please?", moaning, moving your body, taking your hand and physically directing your partner will work too, and can be very helpful. And if you haven't been practicing, then you won't even know what to communicate to your partner in the first place.
The idea that none of this should even be considered until after you're married is the most ludicrous idea I've ever heard for relationships. Abstinance-only philosphy perpetuates the myth that the wedding ring is a magic ring. That you won't ever have to practice anything or talk about anything, it will just magically be good and you will magically be compatible because your relationship is directed by god.
Now, regular readers of my journal already know that abstinance-only education's goals of preventing teen pregnancy and STDs is absolute bullshit. But let's just assume that it's true. As
zen_shootersays, let's just pretend that abstinence-only philosophy isn't the biggest load of horseshit ever. What we're left with is a generation of 18-year-olds getting hitched to the first guy with dreamy eyes and who absolutely have no idea how to control their own reproductive system. And we have 16-year olds having anal sex before vaginal sex because "anal doesn't count"! Now, when I was a kid, anal sex was the advanced sex. That's what you did if you were especially kinky. Now it's what you do before PIV sex! Huh? And kids are getting anal STDs because they're not using condoms because anal sex isn't real sex, so it doesn't count!
So, anyway, back to this kid. I don't know if he's a product of the American abstinance-only education or somewhere abroad, I only know that English is not his first language. But I do know that a very large portion of people who save their virginity for marriage are religious-based and usually completely ignorant of sexual biology, I assume because those who are educated about sex understand the need for practice (even if it's only solo practice) and communication for a satisfying sex life. And this kid is no exception.
It actually took me over an hour of repeating "talk to your girlfriend" before he stopped saying "stop telling me to talk to her, I want to know in general what girls like" and finally agreed to talk to her. I'm pretty sure he still doesn't understand why that's important.
He doesn't know sexual biology. He doesn't know what girls like in bed. He doesn't know what *his* girl likes in bed. And he's terrified to talk to her about it. He's going to tie himself for life (I give him more like 8 years) to a girl who wants to have sex more often than he does, and he's afraid to talk to her. She's going to see him naked, she's going to see him completely ignorant of her body, and he's afraid to talk to her.
I really can't do anything else but bang my head on my desk, turn on another episode of Red Dwarf, and try to forget that there are people so intentionally ignorant of life just long enough to stop ranting in my own head so I can go to sleep.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 10/30/08 07:51 pm (UTC)From:no subject
Date: 10/30/08 07:56 pm (UTC)From:no subject
Date: 10/30/08 08:05 pm (UTC)From:wow...that's just so unnerving and aggravating. And scary. Education and communication are how you make a sexual relationship *work*....
I'm glad that at least he talked to someone with some information and experience. Maybe it will do him some good.
no subject
Date: 10/30/08 08:08 pm (UTC)From:It's a trainwreck, and he's an idiot for agreeing to have sex with her every day. But so it goes.
no subject
Date: 11/1/08 07:47 am (UTC)From:http://uecker22.googlepages.com/ueckeretal_ssr_online.pdf
Less than 1% of "virgins" (no vaginal sex) have had anal sex. There are higher rates of oral sex among "virgins", but it doesnt seem to be linked to the religious standpoint of the students.
But, yeah, I really disagree with a lot of sexual thoughts, that something will "magically" happen, or that sex is something that someone is natural at. Sex is a skill that can be learned, and there are infinate variations that can be explored.
And, he is the one that is refusing to talk about sex with her? But is perfectly willing to discuss it with a stranger? Something is wrong with this picture.
no subject
Date: 11/1/08 06:28 pm (UTC)From: