I agree entirely with your premise, but I do think the shift will be far harder for many women than you think. I've noticed a HUGE break in the mindsets of many women I know, and the gulf's so huge it's like they can't even understand each other or speak the same language.
My ex wife falls on the other side of that gulf from you. She liked sex but could NOT bring herself to ask for it or give explicit consent. She would have a pleasurable sexual experience (as in discussed with therapists and admitted that she teased to instigate & wanted the experience but was unable to say so) and then feel so guilty after reaching climax that she'd go off alone to cry. It took her YEARS of therapy to be able to talk about her own desires, much less reach out and give explicit consent, much less ask. There're a lot of women like that. For them, a change like this is going to be exceptionally difficult.
You know that people tend to self-select the groups they associate with, and this can have the effect of skewing their perceptions about people as a whole since the behavior & attitudes of those around them come to be seen as the prevailing paradigm, even when it's not. Your attitude about sex, and that of many of the women in your peer group, is not the norm in US society. I would wager that the percentage of the female population in the US who'd be extremely uncomfortable with this is much larger than the percentage who'd be happy to do it.
Some of the guys you're running in to who're ambivalent about this have likely spent much of their time around the women who're mentally & emotionally not only unwilling but in some cases UNABLE, without therapy, to bring themselves to do this. I know from reading some of the literature about this that it's a real problem... look at some of the relationship guides & women's magazines (ugh, I know) that have whole sections on "How to let him know you want it without saying so." It's a deeply internalized part of the culture for many & I can understand why some men question the ability of women they know to change. Heck, there're studies out there that say one of the things men want most in the bedroom is dirty talk & that most US women are unable to engage in it... not unwilling, but unable. You're right that it comes back to the whole "nice girls don't" and Madonna/whore thing, but that's much harder to shake for some than others. Add experience with women who're hardened in those attitudes to many women having far less interest in sex than most men & the cessation of sexual activities between long term monogamous partners that's so common and it might give a different perspective on some of the men you're hearing from.
So again, I agree with your premise & I think it's a good idea. I'm just noting that this will take a LOT of work, more than I think you credit, for many WOMEN to make this change, and given the experience many men have had (the only experience for some of them) with women who have low libidos and who're unwilling or unable to express desire that you'll run in to guys for whom the concern you mention is a valid issue. Yes, some of them are jerks or whiners but some of them are simply dealing from the only perspective of experience they have and it's not entirely invalid. A cultural shift such as this typically takes a generation at the least, and for some guys who move in to it before the women around them catch up it DOES probably mean they'll go without sex. That doesn't mean they shouldn't do it, but I'd argue by dismissing & demeaning those who raise the concern you're hurting your message.
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Date: 8/30/11 03:19 pm (UTC)From:My ex wife falls on the other side of that gulf from you. She liked sex but could NOT bring herself to ask for it or give explicit consent. She would have a pleasurable sexual experience (as in discussed with therapists and admitted that she teased to instigate & wanted the experience but was unable to say so) and then feel so guilty after reaching climax that she'd go off alone to cry. It took her YEARS of therapy to be able to talk about her own desires, much less reach out and give explicit consent, much less ask. There're a lot of women like that. For them, a change like this is going to be exceptionally difficult.
You know that people tend to self-select the groups they associate with, and this can have the effect of skewing their perceptions about people as a whole since the behavior & attitudes of those around them come to be seen as the prevailing paradigm, even when it's not. Your attitude about sex, and that of many of the women in your peer group, is not the norm in US society. I would wager that the percentage of the female population in the US who'd be extremely uncomfortable with this is much larger than the percentage who'd be happy to do it.
Some of the guys you're running in to who're ambivalent about this have likely spent much of their time around the women who're mentally & emotionally not only unwilling but in some cases UNABLE, without therapy, to bring themselves to do this. I know from reading some of the literature about this that it's a real problem... look at some of the relationship guides & women's magazines (ugh, I know) that have whole sections on "How to let him know you want it without saying so." It's a deeply internalized part of the culture for many & I can understand why some men question the ability of women they know to change. Heck, there're studies out there that say one of the things men want most in the bedroom is dirty talk & that most US women are unable to engage in it... not unwilling, but unable. You're right that it comes back to the whole "nice girls don't" and Madonna/whore thing, but that's much harder to shake for some than others. Add experience with women who're hardened in those attitudes to many women having far less interest in sex than most men & the cessation of sexual activities between long term monogamous partners that's so common and it might give a different perspective on some of the men you're hearing from.
So again, I agree with your premise & I think it's a good idea. I'm just noting that this will take a LOT of work, more than I think you credit, for many WOMEN to make this change, and given the experience many men have had (the only experience for some of them) with women who have low libidos and who're unwilling or unable to express desire that you'll run in to guys for whom the concern you mention is a valid issue. Yes, some of them are jerks or whiners but some of them are simply dealing from the only perspective of experience they have and it's not entirely invalid. A cultural shift such as this typically takes a generation at the least, and for some guys who move in to it before the women around them catch up it DOES probably mean they'll go without sex. That doesn't mean they shouldn't do it, but I'd argue by dismissing & demeaning those who raise the concern you're hurting your message.