Poly, Feminist, Skeptical, Atheist, Geeky Ballroom Dancers - I want a community just for that.

I am an atheist and a skeptic and I'm damn proud of it. The majority of my personal heroes are atheist and/or skeptical activists. All of my closest friends are atheists and/or skeptics (whether they use the labels or not) and I can't even consider dating anyone unless he is, not only an atheist AND a skeptic, but understands what those labels mean, understands that he *is* them, and embraces the labels and everything that goes with them.

But I do not like the atheist or skeptic communities.

There, I said it. And I'll say it again. I do not like the atheist or skeptic communities.

I like the poly-atheist communities, where people are poly who also happen to be atheists and skeptics. And I like the feminist-skeptic communities, where people are feminist who also happen to be atheists and skeptics. Notice these are communities that are something else that happens to be made up of only atheist and skeptical members from that other community, rather than having atheism or skepticism be the primary tie.  But I do not like the atheist and skeptic communities, even though there are polys and feminists there, because there are ALSO misogynists and mono-apologists.  (The reverse is also somewhat true, in that I get irritated at generic poly communities because of the pagans & alt-med apologists, not to mention the crazy conspiracy nuts (I refuse to use the word "theory" next to "conspiracy" because there's nothing scientific about their conspiracy stories) but that's a rant for another day).

Mono-apologist.  That's a word I just made up, and I don't think it's the right word, but I don't have a word for what I'm about to bitch about, so I'm gonna use that one for now.

The problem with atheists & skeptics is that they're smart. And the problem with smart people is that they often are arrogant. And the problem with arrogant smart people is that they often think they know what's up when they clearly don't.

Now, I don't have a problem with smart people, and I don't even have a problem with arrogantly smart people (one might say that I am one of them). I have a problem when they fall victim to the Dunning-Kreuger effect and don't know what they don't know, but because they're arrogant about being smart, they barrel on through the topic anyway as if being smart gives them license to run their mouth off about something they don't understand.  

And what they tend to run their mouths off about without understanding the subjects happen to be topics that are very near and dear to my heart - polyamory & feminism.

Which brings me to the mono-apologists.

These are people who have internalized that whole caveman hunter-gatherer bullshit alternate history from the same people who brought us such revisionist-history gems as "this nation was founded on Christianity". The mono-apologists who are atheists & skeptics managed to figure out that "we are a Christian Nation" is bullshit and completely made up out of whole cloth, yet fall right into lock-step with the "men are big hunters who eat, fuck, & kill but women are nurturer-gatherers who care and love and grow and support". And from this they slide right down into "jealousy is inevitable, polyamory can't work, people are possessions and no man will want to share and no woman will be willing to share her provider with another woman" yadda yadda.

We've got sexism, misogyny, gender binary assumptions, heteronormative assumptions, and a myopic view of how relationships work (or should work, or always have worked and therefore can't work any other way).

And when a poly person tries to point out that, as a matter of fact, tens of thousands of people have been practicing polyamory successfully for roughly 2 generations now, and that all their "theory" that was based on religiously patriarchal hierarchical structures that do not translate to the modern, Westernized, feminist-based egalitarian relationship structures that have nothing to do with property or control of women's vaginas ... when a poly person tries to point that out, the mono-apologist steamrolls right over them as if nothing was said.

Sometimes, they might pull out "studies" that support their position, but just like the wooagers who use pseudoscience instead of real science, they cherry pick their studies to reference bad studies or studies done under non-analogous societies, & ignore the evidence that is the 30+ year experiment currently running that contradicts all those studies.

And there is nothing that you can say to change their minds.

They absolutely will not back down from the position that all men want lots of sex with no commitment, that women want monogamous relationships, that it is in a man's best interest to spread his seed around but a woman's best interest to secure a faithful provider, that jealousy is inevitable & insurmountable, that people are inherently unable to "share" their possessions partners, that it's not "real love" and polys eventually grow tired of it when they're ready to settle down or when they run out of patience for putting up with always coming in second, that it's harmful to the children, that poly relationships are never long-term, that people who do it are either coerced in some way or have self-esteem problems to be willing to put up with it, and that all the problems they have in monogamous relationships are exactly the same as in poly ones only multipled (i.e. not liking your mother-in-law and now you have 2 or nagging wives x 3 or instead of 1 disgusting, beer-guzzling husband who ignores you on Monday Night Football you have several).

tacit, among others, has said before that people tend to project their own selves onto the world around them.  If they're insecure, then everyone must be insecure.  If they objectify women, then everyone must objectify women.  If they're afraid of commitment, then everyone must be afraid of commitment.  If they get jealous, then everyone must get jealous.  If they can't love more than one person, then no one can love more than one person.  Sometimes you can substitute the word "everyone" with whatever that person's gender is and it'll be more accurate, but the point is still the same - they believe that whatever kind of experience or feelings they have about the world around them must be universal (and by extension, therefore immutable).

There is just so much that is deeply, fundamentally flawed, that it's just like arguing with any other wooager - in order to correct the flaws in their understanding, you have to go all the way back to their childhood and undo everything they've learned in their entire lives just to get them to catch up to today. Remember, I'm not talking about people who are interested in poly and have some mono de-programming to do. I'm talking about people who fit into the status quo and who want to stay there, who are totally oblivious to the entire subculture of polyamory that is large enough for its own conferences (multiple) and to have schisms and sub-sub cultures of its own. These people aren't just wrong, their fractally wrong.

Add that to the exact same problem they have with feminism and women, and I just don't like the atheist or skeptic communities. Even though I am an atheist and a skeptic and even though all of my closest friends and intentional family members are, and even though most of my personal heroes are. I just don't want to spend time in those communities either online or in person because it's just so fucking tiring having to explain this stuff again and again to people who really ought to know better.

I don't want to have to explain, again, why it's rude to "compliment" me in a professional setting on my appearance instead of my contributions to the profession (or worse, to do both at the same time a la "wow, smart AND pretty - the geek's unicorn!"). I don't want to have to explain, again, that I'm not a slut for having 3 boyfriends. I don't want to explain, again, that polyamory is not a cult and that it does, indeed, have longevity potential. I don't want to have to explain, again, that polyamory isn't a phase, a sign of low self-esteem, something I was talked into, or that my relationships won't last.  I don't want to explain, again, that just because I'm wearing something sexy, it doesn't mean I want you to hit on me. I don't want to have to explain, again, how just because guys also have problems just for being guys, we still need to talk about the problems women have for being women and throwing in "but we're persecuted too!" is inappropriate and derailing. And I don't want to have to explain, again, that being polyamorous doesn't mean I have "room for one more boyfriend" - especially when that "one more" is some guy I just met at the hotel conference bar who is just grateful that I'm a female who isn't religious and who is thin.

Seriously, guys, ya'll are fucked up sometimes.