joreth | FEAR MY WRATH!

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FEAR MY WRATH!

There's this other thing that people are doing lately. Maybe they've always done this, I don't know, but my memories tell me that, "in the good ol' days", when someone said "I'm getting angry, drop the subject", people used to actually drop the subject if they genuinely didn't want to make the other person angry because they cared that someone was not happy and that they were contributing to that unhappiness. When someone said "this is upsetting me, stop doing it", people either used to care that they were upsetting someone and would stop doing it, or they were trying to upset someone, so would keep doing it.

But lately, when I've said "don't push me on that" or "drop the sujbect" or "I'm getting pissed off so stop", the reaction I'm getting is not "sorry, I didn't want to actually make you angry, I just wanted to converse on this subject, I'll let it go now". No, what I'm getting is "ooh, I'm so scared! Joreth might get angry! What are you going to do about it, huh? Yell at me on the internet?" (This is a quote, by the way, and a very close paraphrase of multiple responses).

For some reason that I can't quite fathom, when I say "this is a triggering subject so leave me alone", what people are hearing is "I AM THE ALL POWERFUL VENGEFUL INTERNET CENSOR. YOU MUST CEASE WRITING ABOUT THIS SUBJECT OR YOU WILL FEAR MY WRATH!"

Listen up assholes, I'm not threatening you with dire punishment for daring to have a difference of opinion. I'm warning you that I am feeling emotional, or about to get emotionally upset, and this conversation will cease to be productive. I'm alerting you to the fact that what you are saying or doing is hurtful to me and I want you to stop hurting me. I'm sorry that being hurt results in my inability to ask you politely to stop hurting me, with an appropriate amount of compassion for your feelings about being asked to stop hurting me [/sarcasm], but I am trying to get you to stop hurting me, not threatening you that I'm about to do something bad to you (although yelling at you might be considered doing "something bad", it's a reaction, not a punitive action, and not a particularly dire one in the grand scheme of things).

I do not have a big enough ego to say that being mad at someone on the internet is this horrible thing for the other person. I don't think that I am important enough for it to matter to most people that I am mad at them. I am assuming, obviously incorrectly, that you are a decent person who doesn't actually intend to cause me pain or emotional upset, and that notifying you of my impending or current upset is something you might appreciate so that you will have the opportunity to stop doing whatever it is that is upsetting me so that we can continue or improve our relationship (even if it's just online acquaintances).

But, apparently, you do not wish to be notified when you are doing something hurtful so that you can stop hurting me. Apparently, you are enjoying causing me pain, and the challenge to do so after being threatened with consequences only ups the ante.

What the fuck is wrong with you people that when you are told "I'm getting upset, stop doing that", your first thought is not "I didn't want to hurt someone, perhaps I should table this until she's not so upset or in another forum that is more conducive to discussing this subject", but is instead you think "ooh, I'm so scared, c'mon, whatcha gonna do about it?" I'm not warning you not to poke the bear because the bear will tear you to pieces. I'm telling you that I'm hurting and it's because of something that you're doing, and I'm hoping that you are a decent and compassionate person who doesn't want to deliberately hurt me. Clearly, I was wrong.

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I have to say (possibly after being trained into it by 25 years online) that if someone's reaction to "don't push me on that" is to push more, my first thought is that they're a troll (or at least have trollish tendancies). Both online, and in person. Which will tend to change how I interact with them. (Typically I won't bother to call them out as a troll, as that rarely works in my experience; but I'll also reframe my view of the interaction away from being one of mutual humanity -- including not asking them to do things to respect my feelings, and taking steps to protect myself. Generally ignoring trolls is the most expedient approach.)

FWIW, "Apparently, you are enjoying causing me pain, and the challenge to do so after being threatened with consequences only ups the ante." is a classic indication of interaction with a troll IMHO. If this is someone that you didn't previously consider a troll, then it'd be worth at least considering that they have trollish tendancies and/or can "play a troll on TV". (There's a particularly annoying childish masculine culture involving that sort of "playing a troll" teasing to annoy someone to get a reaction, which some people seem to take a long time to grow out of.)

Ewen

Believe it or not, the majority of these mocking reactions are from people I actually know in real life, they just happen to be doing it online. I don't disagree at all with your assessment of it being a "particularly annoying childish masculine culture", as I do know quite a few people who seem to enjoy playing the troll (only they use the phrase "devil's advocate" but it's not really) and I do tend to limit my interactions with people who think that's a reasonable way to treat people, particularly people one considers friends. But, for the most part, these aren't generally people I would consider to be trolls. It may even be a bit of extra annoyance when generally decent and intelligent people do stupid and hurtful things.

I'm just frustrated and venting that anyone could possibly think that someone who is expressing hurt and anger over one's actions is that person actually pulling a power trip or that mocking that upset is a reasonable response. To be unaware and apologetic, I get. To be aware and unapologetic I also get. To mistake "you're hurting me" for "I am a big bad meanie and you will regret crossing me" is baffling and irritating.

Interpreting "you're hurting me" as "I am a big bad meanie and you will regret crossing me" is indeed baffling and irritating behaviour in apparently reasonable people. For me that interpretation combined with carrying on the interaction that is causing pain pretty directly makes me re-evaluate my view of how reasonable the person actually is; YMMV. (And yes I did get the implication that these were people you knew in real life too; one is generally quicker to dismiss random strangers behaving poorly than those nearer ones monkeyspehere.)

"The devil's advocate" is another of those phrases which gets dropped as a phrase to excuse all sorts of things which really aren't "playing the devil's advocate" the way the phrase was historically used; I've not explicitly come across it used to excuse trolling, but it doesn't surprise me that people try to do so.

Ewen

PS: Formative years of hanging out in groups regularly bothered by trolls has possibly made me a little hair trigger on deciding someone is "acting like a troll". I do tend to treat it a bit like Godwin's Law though.

I used to know someone who just thought it was fun to argue, and it didn't matter what the topic was or even if the argument was making any sense. He called it "playing Devil's Advocate" but it used to piss me off because it was an *argument*. I couldn't have just a conversation with someone who was supposed to be a friend where we actually agreed on something, ever.

That, and a couple of other creepy things, led me to tell him just to stop contacting me. It was hard, though, because we had been friends since junior high school. It wasn't until after high school that he started doing it.

Edited 2013-05-04 16:30 (UTC)

So, if they know you in real life, do they respect you in real life, or do they not?

(Knowing just what you posted, it seems like not, but it's possible for someone to be cool in real life and to be a bag of dicks on the internet, where things seem more like a game and where they can't see the look of actual pain on your face and so maybe they don't take it seriously without an extra clue-brick. In fact I've seen that a lot. In fact, I've even been "that guy" and sat there obliviously laughing and thinking we're all having fun in spite of what ought to be clear evidence that, no, someone else is NOT having fun and is becoming seriously upset. Only after the fact did I look it over and go "Oh shit. Why did I do that? I oughta have my head examined.)

Another possibility is a privilege thing. Someone who consistently accuses someone else of "power tripping" when they're just making their needs and preferences known, may be implying that some people's needs and preferences don't count or are subservient to the preferences of others. Like calling a woman "strident" and "aggressive" for behavior that they see as normal from a man. Only you know whether that particular shoe fits here.

Different explanations for different people. In one case, it was definitely privilege, as the argument was, in fact, about privilege & his privilege was leaking out all over the page. In other cases, there was probably some of that just-not-understanding going on. I'm thinking of one in particular who is a coworker, and we have a very ribbing sort of atmosphere at work, so he probably just didn't know that I was *actually* angry, or that telling me to "relax, it's just a joke" would make it worse.

When I get particularly irritated is when these are people who *know* me, as in, they follow me online, they've had conversations with me, they *know* that I have certain topics that are triggers for me, they know that I use the internet for ranting, not rational dialog, they've seen these same arguments break out over and over again.

That's when it becomes a "you're not paying attention to me, you aren't listening, you don't even care", which is especially hurtful when it's not some random stranger online who, of course, doesn't care.

I agree with EDM's comments to a point, but I'd like to note something about the "censor" part of what you said. There's been a lot of observation online lately about the tendency of people to overuse the idea of "triggering" issues as a passive-aggressive, or outright aggressive, means of controlling a conversation. Basically they're using the behavior you describe to act as bullies & assert their right to be heard without allowing any response.

So for instance someone will come in and say "I believe X about X and this's why," often on a topic that's controversial, or stating an opinion that might be debatable or hurtful to the audience, and then when others respond the original poster will come back with "OMG you're an awful person and you're triggering me, how dare you!" Essentially it boils down to "I will impose my opinion and you're not allowed to speak."

Given that, I can see where strangers online might have the reaction you describe. If it's people you know, there might be other issues to look at.

Yeah, it's not strangers, it's on common themes that I write about that most of the people who follow me do so *because* I write about that topic (i.e. my audience generally agrees with me), and it's in responses to posts that are clearly emotional and ranty and obvious that it's not a place for polite discussion - I'm not having a "conversation", I'm venting a frustration about something that is emotionally upsetting in my own space (and usually things that I vent about regularly so my position on the subject is not a surprise) and the last thing I need is someone coming in and starting an argument with me about it when I'm either already pissed off or it's a subject that everyone already knows is likely to piss me off.

And, to be brutally honest, a person speaking in their own space (i.e. their own LJ, their own FB timeline, whatever) does have the right to control what gets said (within the limits of that space's ToS). That's not "censorship". People like to throw that word around every time someone doesn't like what they say, but there's no government sanction preventing anyone from saying these things, it's just a person saying "you can't say that in my own space". I wrote a whole other post on censorship vs. using one's own space in the manner one wishes and not according to outside preference.

However, that's a different topic.

I think space is the key here. If I am talking in my own space or on a public space, and somebody tries to tell me I shouldn't talk that way because it bothers them, I experience this as an unfair attempt at censorship and I am very likely to tell them with varying degrees of politeness that they are welcome not to participate. It's not their space to control.

If it is on their personal space, electronically or physically, then they set the rules and I am the one who gets to leave if I don't like it. And I probably will, if I feel like I have to tiptoe on eggshells to avoid hurting someone. They have every right to have and clearly communicate their triggers and stop a conversation that has become uncomfortable for them in their space. I have an equal right to stop participating in a conversation that has become uncomfortable for me.

A whole lot depending on how they do the asking for me to back off. If I perceive them as being respectful and taking responsibility for communicating their personal triggers without being controlling or judgmental, we can continue on other subjects. If not, then I'll leave their space and will probably be very wary about ever returning. If the asking is done in what I perceive to be an overtly controlling or domineering manner, or if they actually delete/censor what I wrote, chances are very, very good I will not return. Being controlled, dominated or having what I wrote deleted are actually pretty big triggers for me personally, and these things would make me uncomfortable enough to respond negatively.

Both changing the subject and leaving their space are acceptable responses to someone saying "drop the subject, this is bothering me", regardless of what tone they use to say so. Either response is exactly what I'm asking for when I tell people to stop.

Taunting them with "or, what, you'll yell at me on the internet? Oh no, I'm so scared!" is not appropriate, and what I'm complaining about. I'm not threatening anyone, regardless of whether or not they think my tone is "appropriate", I'm stating my triggers.

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